Amy Outman on Recovery and Resilience

Summary

In this episode of the Ginger and Chocolate podcast, Lindsay Hiken welcomes back Amy Outman to discuss the challenges of self-care during times of physical and mental exhaustion. They delve into Amy's recent experiences with travel, illness, and recovery, exploring the importance of listening to one's body and seeking support from friends and professionals. The conversation touches on the generational differences in attitudes towards self-care and the balance between independence and seeking help.

Keywords

self-care, exhaustion, recovery, generational differences, support

Takeaways

• Taking care of yourself is crucial when feeling physically exhausted.
• Listening to your body and seeking help can aid recovery.
• Generational attitudes towards self-care vary significantly.
• Balancing independence with seeking help is important.
• Amy shares her experience with COVID and its long-term effects.
• The importance of hydration and proper nutrition in recovery.
• Hyperbaric chambers and infrared saunas can aid in recovery.
• The mental challenge of resting and not feeling guilty about it.
• The role of family and friends in supporting recovery.
• The impact of societal expectations on self-worth and productivity.

Sound bites

"Taking care of yourself is crucial." "Listen to your body." "Generational attitudes vary." "Balance independence and help." "COVID's long-term effects." "Hydration is key." "Rest without guilt." "Family support matters." "Societal expectations impact self-worth." "Recovery requires listening."

Connect with Amy:

- AmyOutman.com

-Instagram

Thanks for listening to the Ginger and Chocolate Podcast. Check out our website at gingerandchocolate.com to get in touch with us. Follow us on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram @ginger_and_chocolate_podcast; and please subscribe to the show and select automatic downloads on your podcast app.

Transcript

Lindsay Hiken (00:03.369)
Hello, welcome to the Ginger and Chocolate podcast. I'm Lindsay and I am, well, I'm flying solo this week because Mike is traveling for work. But I have a special guest, Amy, who if you've been listening to this podcast for a long time, you will remember her from way back in the day we talked about yoga and Amy is back on the show. How's it going, Amy?

Amy Outman (00:25.006)
Pretty good, thanks for having me back.

Lindsay Hiken (00:27.987)
Good, yeah, I'm excited. We're gonna talk about some fun, well, I don't know if it's called fun, but we're gonna talk about some important things today, I think. We are talking about taking care of yourself when you don't feel good physically, and for me, I think right now, the time that we're in in this world is making me a little physically exhausted, if you know what I mean.

Amy Outman (00:30.36)
Good, me too.

Amy Outman (00:52.258)
Yeah, I do.

Lindsay Hiken (00:54.727)
So tell us, because I know recently you had some stuff crop up. Tell us a little bit about that.

Amy Outman (00:59.658)
Okay, well, you know, we did that really fun gravel bike adventure in Montana. We did that together with a group of friends, which was awesome. And physically, I mean, it was quite an output. think I was thinking about our stats. I think we did like 250 miles and do you know what our elevation climb was? I don't know something like 20,000. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (01:05.873)
Thank

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (01:22.395)
It was a lot. don't know how much it is. Yeah, it was a lot.

Amy Outman (01:26.134)
Yeah, but anyways, but it was a great, know, I felt like we trained up for it and it was still challenging, but that was a lot. And then I had some more travel after that. was, you know, went from straight from Montana to a wedding in Chicago. And then it was like the trifecta. Then I went to, you know, my childhood home where I grew up where.

You know, I all kinds of memories and experiences. I went there with my siblings. We went to celebrate my dad's 85th birthday, which was really special. But I think just being physically exhausted and exhilarated, you know, I think those things can go hand in hand. And then to go into just like a family environment and like the food was heavy and lots of food. And I'm...

I think my system, I wish it weren't, but I'm sensitive to what I eat. And then I started, on the last day there, I had a cold, didn't feel great, got on the airplane to come home. I was like, this is not good, I do not feel well.

came home and we were having house guests like the next day. And Dell, my husband said, should test for COVID because, you know, one of my friends who was coming into town, yeah, she's kind of immunocompromised. We just wanted to be really, you know, careful and considerate. So test for COVID, big old positive. You are positive for COVID. Yeah. So, you know, being over 50 and, um,

Lindsay Hiken (02:47.037)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (02:53.192)
F.

Hmm.

Amy Outman (03:00.48)
Also, not only, so I canceled those house guests with the following weekend we had, know, the Grateful Dead came and did a big concert in Golden Gate Park. And we're also hosting for that event. So my doctor recommended that I get on Paxlobin, the antiviral, which I did. And I, you know, secluded myself in my room for five days, which I don't even know what the current protocol is. Actually, I did look it up. I think it's three days, but I did five. My doctor said three. And.

Lindsay Hiken (03:06.761)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (03:14.92)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (03:30.742)
Went to the concerts. This is a long answer to your short question, but went to the concerts. Okay, okay. Went to the concerts, just went all out. You know, it was in Golden Gate Park, Grateful Dead and Billy Strings and Sturgill Simpson. Super fun, big family, dancing. I, that was, when was that? That was at the end of July, first week of August. And I could not recover.

Lindsay Hiken (03:34.641)
No, I want to hear the story.

Lindsay Hiken (03:59.626)
Hmm.

Amy Outman (04:00.088)
For like two months, I couldn't recover. I was exhausted and I just had never been that sick for that long. And I was trying to figure out like what was the cause? Was it the COVID?

Lindsay Hiken (04:02.483)
Wow.

Amy Outman (04:17.058)
Was it the travel? Was it the exertion from the gravel bike trip? Was it PTSD from being back in Indiana? Where's my family? Was it kind of a mix of all of those things? And I think I've just spent the last almost three months just exploring and trying to figure it out and trying different things. But Lindsay, I've just never been so exhausted.

Lindsay Hiken (04:25.959)
Family.

Amy Outman (04:45.71)
And it's kind of nice, like when people ask me, Amy, how are you? I would just tell the truth and be like, I'm beat. I don't know what's going on. I'm exhausted. Yeah. yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (04:50.985)
Thank

Lindsay Hiken (04:56.489)
remember seeing you during that time. I mean, I see you often and I remember seeing you during that time and you were definitely like less energy than your normal self and and missing things I think like with girlfriends that you normally wouldn't you'd be able to come do you know and you were just like I can't do it. I can't leave the house right now or whatever and you know, I kind of thought it was long coded because I had long coded.

Amy Outman (05:06.798)
I'm sorry.

Amy Outman (05:11.118)
Great. Great. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Amy Outman (05:23.374)
Uh huh. Uh huh.

Lindsay Hiken (05:24.585)
in 2021. And it did it lasted. I mean, I know some people have it for like a year or two year. Mine was like three, three and half months. And it was sort of that same thing of like, I had no energy, my fever kept coming back. That was one thing and then my chest stuff kept coming back. So I'd feel a little better and then I would do one thing like

Amy Outman (05:47.65)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (05:47.764)
go for a hike or something and then that would take everything out of me. So I can kind of relate, but I didn't do all of the self-care things that you did. I just kept powering through, you know, going to work every day and working long hours and then being like, I've got a fever again and like just falling apart. So I want to learn from you a little bit about taking care of yourself and, you know, because with something like this, you can't really control it.

Amy Outman (06:15.052)
Right. And I do know people that have had long COVID and I keep calling what I had long enough COVID. And I also, you know, we have friends who have had various viruses and have had a really hard time recovering and it can turn into a chronic illness. And I've been really afraid of that.

Lindsay Hiken (06:22.417)
Yeah.

Amy Outman (06:37.574)
I was scared enough to not that people have control over it. I don't really know. I do feel like I've pulled out of the worst of it, but I have friends that have suffered for years and years and years. And I would say those are, you know, one of the things that I did for my care is because I was just so scared of this lasting. And so I reached out and I made phone calls and I asked people.

It gave me a lot of empathy. Like, I think I know what you've been going through. When you say you're too tired to have dinner, that's how I feel right now. So I really felt like I could relate. And the other thing that's interesting, I was listening to this podcast. Did I share with you the Hidden Brain podcast that I listened to? Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting podcast. NPR puts it out and it's about...

Lindsay Hiken (07:27.655)
I think you did, but I haven't listened to it yet.

Amy Outman (07:34.712)
kind of our subconscious and unconscious behaviors that our brains kind of click into without us really consciously even knowing why we do something. So like why we react the way we react. this one, this hidden brain was around getting constructive criticism or getting direction from people or professionals or friends. The idea being that often, you we can't see our own stuff.

Lindsay Hiken (07:37.737)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (08:03.85)
And so someone else, and especially when we're asking for help, they can kind of see us and they may give us direction or advice or even constructive criticism. But for some reason, like what is it in our brains that resists that and doesn't do that good orderly direction? yeah, me too, man, me too. And it's cool to listen to the podcast, say, this is kind of normal human.

Lindsay Hiken (08:22.833)
Yes, I relate to that, definitely.

Amy Outman (08:31.192)
condition and why do we do this? And I think the theory and it's also based, the podcast is interesting. It's based on scientific evidence, which I appreciate. And then also kind of just pragmatic, applicable experiences, people's kind of storytelling experiences. But that when people do do these things, their lives get better. They grow, they feel better.

And so again, I was so desperate and fearful, just feeling horrible that I, when I reached out to these friends and told them how I was feeling and asked them what their experience is and what they've done, I tried to really listen and actually do the thing. And it's kind of basic things like, hydration, are you drinking enough? I got a lot of advice to have more salt and,

Lindsay Hiken (09:13.225)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Lindsay Hiken (09:20.623)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (09:25.597)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (09:26.668)
I had seen a heart doctor like four years ago, because when I was training up for triathlon, I was having like heart palpitations and some weird stuff with my heart rate. And I think I saw three doctors, including a specialist. And the specialist doctor, the heart doctor said maybe I was having some acid reflux. And when he said,

Lindsay Hiken (09:51.177)
Hmm.

Amy Outman (09:52.137)
I was paying thousands of dollars to hear him say it. I remembered that my last two doctors had said that. so I got acid reflux and I could take an over the counter medication to help. full way. And also this doctor said I needed more salt in my diet. So it's like someone's sharing to click. It's like, you know, I dehydrated. I could use more salt.

Lindsay Hiken (10:04.286)
Ha!

Lindsay Hiken (10:14.731)
Amy Outman (10:20.142)
might be having acid reflux again. So that's the first thing I did was asking friends. know, the second thing I did was I just made a doctor's appointment and went to go local doctor down the street, nothing fancy, but got in and just told her my symptoms. And of course she gave me the one sheet on COVID. You know, I was like tick tick all the COVID.

Lindsay Hiken (10:22.963)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (10:32.207)
huh.

Lindsay Hiken (10:44.275)
Huh?

Lindsay Hiken (10:48.777)
I didn't realize that. So you did doctor, you did friends and you start hydrating.

Amy Outman (10:49.92)
Yeah, so it was anyway, Yeah, girls. I did Dr. Friends hydrating, talked to my family about it. You know, my brother has this place called Restore, Restore Hyper Wellness, and he invited me to come down and do that. I mentioned to the hyperbaric chamber, which is an interesting method.

Lindsay Hiken (11:12.681)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So what is that? Like what happens with that?

Amy Outman (11:19.766)
Yeah, it's really, it's, it's so you go into a chamber, a little chamber, sometimes they're quite small. was afraid I was going to feel claustrophobic and they, you said you lay down. It's kind of like a nest. Like you get into a nest, they zip you in. You've got a radio, there's a nurse. So there is a registered nurse at his facility. And I think, I mean, I think wherever they do the hyperbolic chambers, hyperbaric chambers, you know, there's a

Lindsay Hiken (11:27.473)
Is standing, sitting, laying down?

Amy Outman (11:49.007)
a nurse present, I believe, or a trained person. It's basically like a pressure cooker. It's a pressurized environment. And you breathe in pure oxygen, so they put oxygen under your nose. And I think that's the idea, is that it kind of pushes oxygen into your system, into the red blood cells or your tissues. it's been shown to reduce inflammation.

Lindsay Hiken (11:49.617)
nervous soon.

Lindsay Hiken (12:01.075)
you

Lindsay Hiken (12:09.33)
Okay.

Amy Outman (12:14.862)
and good for wound healing, good for athletic recovery. know people that are long distance runners will often go in there. I did a little research before I went in because I was like, what kind of witchcraft is this? it's recommended. I think the CDC has approved it and the Mayo Clinic has a page on it. So yeah, it's been shown to make a difference. So I did a couple of those.

Lindsay Hiken (12:19.411)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (12:31.718)
Yeah.

Amy Outman (12:43.726)
sessions. I may, I probably listen, I probably listen to one of your podcasts. I was, I had to kind of calm myself down, you know, cause I, it feels they bring it up to pressure and it's, can't just hop out if you change your mind. Like they got to slowly decompress you. Yeah. But people love it. People listen to music. My brother goes in there and like does work on his computer.

Lindsay Hiken (12:43.965)
Did you get sleepy in there or did you just sit in there? I mean, how, how did you feel a little?

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (13:02.121)
Uh huh. Oh.

Lindsay Hiken (13:11.906)
really? Huh.

Amy Outman (13:12.526)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I, you know, my brother treated me to that. And I, I also got IVs, like hydration IVs and some vitamins and I'm not sure what they put in that vitamin C. did some vitamin B. Yeah. Have you? Yeah. you? Yeah. Yeah. How was that?

Lindsay Hiken (13:26.889)
I've had some IV. Yeah, I did it. It was interesting, like, did it in Reno, because we were up in Tahoe and we're like, we're so dehydrated and whatever. So did it in Reno. And I don't know what I wanted. I think I wanted some something magical to happen. I just didn't have a headache later from being, you know, fully hydrated, which I

Amy Outman (13:38.868)
Right. yeah.

Amy Outman (13:51.47)
Right, right, right. That's good.

Lindsay Hiken (13:55.836)
Yeah, I wake up with headaches a lot because I'm dehydrated. I woke up and I felt pretty good, which was nice up in the altitude. But I wanted some sort of magic to happen and there was no real magic. I got vitamins going.

Amy Outman (14:03.234)
Yeah.

The best I felt actually with when I was doing the hyperbaric chamber was then going into the infrared sauna. Have you done one of those? That was nice too. It was interesting because you go in and it doesn't feel hot, there's infrared light. And so I think, I don't know how this works, but I think you get

Lindsay Hiken (14:21.354)
I haven't done one of those.

Hmm.

Amy Outman (14:35.406)
It heats you up from the inside. And then there's just this moment where you just break a sweat. And it elevated my heart rate. So I think it's almost like a pseudo workout. Like you get some of the benefits, like from working out, which was really nice because I love to work out. I mean, I love to feel, I feel so good when I'm working out and breaking a sweat. And I hadn't for, you know, six weeks.

Lindsay Hiken (14:38.183)
Wow.

Lindsay Hiken (14:42.665)
Lindsay Hiken (14:51.506)
Huh.

Lindsay Hiken (15:03.913)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (15:04.174)
at the time of doing that. So I just like, it was like, oh, it felt so good to do that, to do the infrared sauna.

Lindsay Hiken (15:09.769)
I'm just thinking about how I how could I get one of those here so that on the days where I'm like too tired from work to work out I can just go flop into the sauna and sweat.

Amy Outman (15:18.958)
Right. We might, we gotta have one in town. There's, I would imagine there's an infrared sauna. You and I were talking, I think there's also a hyperbaric chamber or someone downtown has one here where we live. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (15:22.546)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (15:30.921)
Maybe I'll try it.

Lindsay Hiken (15:36.773)
So how did you feel after all of that? Did it change?

Amy Outman (15:40.973)
You know, I felt it was was felt like a treat. Like I don't normally treat myself to those kinds of things. There's, course, an expense involved. And so that felt good to take the time to do that. And I think when I came home, I was down in Santa Barbara. When I came home, I was also committed to. It like I think it hydrated me and got me in a place where I could just

rest in a deeper way. So I also got committed someone recommended going to bed at a regular time and watching my sleep. So was like okay I'm gonna listen to that and actually do it.

Lindsay Hiken (16:12.659)
Lindsay Hiken (16:20.105)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (16:28.241)
And yeah, I think I slept better. I also, you know, I wear my monitor. Sometimes I wear an Aura ring. I lost it, but I was committed. I'm like, I'm gonna find that thing and put it on. And the first day, my first reading, I think I told you this was like, go back to bed. You're not fit to do anything today. So was kind of shocking, but validating at the same time. Cause I was like, that's exactly how I feel. I feel exhausted.

Lindsay Hiken (16:34.814)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (16:45.577)
That's right.

Lindsay Hiken (16:54.656)
I love the feedback. I wear a watch that has one that's a tie to Fitbit. And I do love when I wake up and I feel drained and horrible. I do like that to look and go, oh, well, you slept horribly. You got five hours of sleep out of eight or nine. And you legitimately aren't. Your battery is on low. It's like, oh, OK, I can be more gentle with myself now.

then just get up and do it. You're lazy. You know, it's like I'm actually burned out.

Amy Outman (17:19.566)
And at the same.

Amy Outman (17:25.422)
And when it says, you're good to go, your readiness score is higher. feel like, all right, made time to get your butt out there and go walk, maybe jog a little. I do like to exercise, but it's hard to get me going and I can fall out of it. That's kind of where I'm at now. When I get out of the routine, yeah, it's hard to get myself motivated.

Sometimes the day that's good to have, like, okay, you're good to go. Get back out there. Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (17:56.394)
Right, right. It is is hard when you fall off to get back into working out sometimes. I mean, I definitely have had that with my running like I'm super excited to run and I shared that on the show and I have a couple things I'm going to be doing. But some days I like wake up and I'm like.

Amy Outman (18:05.314)
Yeah, for sure.

Lindsay Hiken (18:20.081)
I just want to stay in bed a little longer. I've been going to that 7 a.m. meeting, so I'm like, want to go to a meeting. And then I've got work right after that. And then I'm like, well, maybe I'll go out and lunch.

Amy Outman (18:28.918)
Yeah. Don't you do, don't you do your workout? Do you have a 5 30 a.m workout that you're doing? Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (18:34.747)
Mm hmm. That it's one of those things where that I'm going to like religiously. So I pop out of bed at five and I go do that workout. It fits into my schedule and I just do it. It's like if I got out of practice of doing that, I could see just blowing it off, but I'm in the flow of doing it. But the other things like running or writing, whatever, I'm not in the flow of doing those. And so like you're saying, it's hard to get like, OK, just go.

Amy Outman (18:41.28)
Okay, because

Amy Outman (19:02.349)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (19:03.907)
start walking and then you can start running or just you know so

Amy Outman (19:06.382)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's good to be scheduled or, you know, a commitment with a friend. I know we've talked a lot about that, or I'm training right now for a half marathon. I think it's mid November, November 16th. And it's the city to see, I think something like that. And yeah, it's been nice training. Just having that commitment. Hey, let's run on Thursdays and Sundays. I think that's the current commitment with the family.

Lindsay Hiken (19:34.025)
Nice.

Amy Outman (19:36.608)
Yeah, so it helps get me out there. Although I've been slacking. Because I think, I mean, I think I am pretty much recovered, but I'm not, I don't think I'm completely out of the woods. So, yeah, paying attention.

Lindsay Hiken (19:40.081)
Mm hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (19:48.744)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Having that downtime, not be having quote unquote downtime, but it's not downtime because you're not your normal self. don't find it to be rest. I don't necessarily find it to be restful, so I can come out of being sick. And even though I've slept a million hours, still takes me a while to actually get.

back to wanting to have the energy to do all the things I like to do. So you're still a little bit in that.

Amy Outman (20:19.01)
Yeah. Have you? Yeah. Yeah, I may be. Yeah, I've been like doing percentages. like, I know, I'm close. I'm like 90, like up to 90%. So that's pretty good. How about you? You were saying you were feeling really tired. Did you pull out of that? You're feeling really fatigued.

Lindsay Hiken (20:30.185)
That's good.

Lindsay Hiken (20:37.769)
I have not pulled out of it. What I have done is told my doctor, because it's been pretty intense the last few weeks, my sleep hasn't been great. But even on the nights when I've had decent enough sleep, where in the past that would have been fine, I've just been exhausted all day. And it just feels so deep exhaustion.

Amy Outman (20:41.678)
Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (21:07.451)
So I went, so Josh was getting blood tests done and just going to like a quest and getting them done. Cause he wanted to do a little experiment and take some measurements of himself. And know, Kaiser won't let you to do them like every month for six months or they just won't do that. Right. So he wanted to do it. And so he said, well, he, so he ordered me some tests and I went and took them. And then I got back.

the test there were six things that were out of the normal range. My cholesterol and my LDL cholesterol, which was weird. My red blood cell count is lower than the lowest range, bottom of the range. And let's see, those are three, a thing called ALT, which is your liver function. That was really high.

Amy Outman (22:01.87)
Mm.

Lindsay Hiken (22:01.905)
way above the range. So the top of the range is 36 and I was at a third, I'm sorry, 26 and I was at a 38. And there was a couple other things.

Amy Outman (22:12.568)
Did they check your A1C?

Lindsay Hiken (22:15.837)
They have not, but Kaiser has been checking that because of being the pre-diabetic. But you know, I've shared on here about peptides and I lost weight and I went from that 6.2 and some change down to 5.4. So I'm no longer even pre-diabetic. I'm moving close. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, I'm super excited about that. Yeah, yeah. So I'm very happy about that.

Amy Outman (22:17.39)
Okay. Okay.

Right.

Amy Outman (22:31.434)
Wow. Great. Wow. Okay. That's fantastic. Yeah. I have a friend who's pre-diabetic. We were just talking about it. Yeah. I was encouraging her to talk to her doctor about it. That's great.

Lindsay Hiken (22:44.553)
Yeah, yeah, made a huge difference. So I sent the results to my doctor and I was like, I did these tests, none in truth are the right tests, but there are six things that are out of whack. And he wrote back and was like, Okay, well, I don't feel like this is a complete picture. I ordered you a bunch of so now I need to go over to Kaiser and take more blood. I just needed to go do it.

Amy Outman (22:52.578)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (23:05.226)
good. Okay. Yeah. Get that done. I also did that. My doctor recommended a full blood panel and tested for everything. Pretty much for mine, everything was in the normal range. I actually have a high LDL, but I think that's good. My cholesterol overall was high, but I think that's because my LDL was so high and my LDL was all, yeah. no, sorry. My HDL was high, which is the good one.

Lindsay Hiken (23:12.861)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (23:18.355)
Good.

Lindsay Hiken (23:24.317)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (23:28.221)
That's what I have. Hi. Yeah, I got the LDL.

Amy Outman (23:36.11)
Okay, yeah, that was not the good one. I mean, I don't really know, but that's going to my doctor.

Lindsay Hiken (23:37.925)
No.

Lindsay Hiken (23:41.961)
That's what I hear on Instagram.

Amy Outman (23:43.919)
That's right. I did ask. Cause I always think high L I always think HDL is like the high one that should be bad, but that's actually the good one. H for healthy. Good. Well, good. I'm glad you're getting more blood work done and it sounds like.

Lindsay Hiken (23:45.929)
you

Lindsay Hiken (23:52.265)
Age for healthy.

Lindsay Hiken (24:00.778)
But he doesn't really think he's going to find much of my blood. He thinks that I switched from the CPAP to a dental appliance for my sleep apnea. And he thinks that the dental appliance isn't doing a good enough job. So I have a CPAP. I'm going to try it again. know, I don't it's the dental appliance is more comfortable because there's no

Amy Outman (24:06.05)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (24:13.144)
Great.

Amy Outman (24:21.111)
Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (24:30.313)
hose coming out of the front of face. But it is easier to travel with and it's easier to have a partner in bed with you, know, which Josh and I don't sleep in the same bed most of the time, but when we travel, we do. And, you know, I always had this hose like, you know, turning over and hitting him with a hose. But I will say the other piece of it is that this dental appliance pushes your lower jaw forward. That's how it's keeping your windpipe open. And my jaw is sore.

Amy Outman (24:31.79)
Yeah, it sounds way better. Easier to travel with.

Amy Outman (24:40.814)
Right.

Amy Outman (24:44.918)
Sure.

Amy Outman (25:00.29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (25:00.347)
every day from that and my bites changing a little bit and my dentist was like this thing's not good for you your bites like all off and blah blah blah so I've been getting some signs for medical professionals that I should be using my CPAP so I'm gonna try it and just you know if I have to go back sleep apnea is no joke

Amy Outman (25:11.509)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (25:23.63)
That's right. That's right. I remember you talking about how much better you felt like life changing.

Lindsay Hiken (25:28.105)
And I'm kind of feel like I did pre CPAP, you know what I mean? It was just exhausted dragging around. once he said that, I was like, I have experienced this feeling before. And it was, you know,

Amy Outman (25:33.294)
Okay, yeah, yeah.

Amy Outman (25:39.73)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's kind of what I heard. Yeah, that's what I heard about the acid reflux. Because when I went to my doctor and told her my symptoms, especially that because was having like my heart rate felt elevated or not elevated, just felt like a loud pounding. I'd feel it when I went to bed at night and she was like, oh, you were here in 2022 and these are the symptoms. And it was similar.

so I think that's, that's also part of the protocol that I've been on is just taking the, know, daily ant, whatever the pill for, acid reflux. Yeah. Yeah. Which I've heard can, you know, if you take it soon enough, like if, if you let it go for too long, it can become chronic. but if you take it soon enough, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (26:25.414)
Really?

Amy Outman (26:27.596)
I think there's like a, you know, your esophagus, there's an esophageal sphincter. It's like this little muscle at the top of the esophagus and it can get inflamed. And if you take that medicine, it sounds horrible, doesn't it? But if it gets inflamed, it's like when you lay down or anything, if there's any kind of like just stomach acid anywhere near it, it sends these like warning signals to your body, to your heart, to your brain. And it, it almost presents like anxiety. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (26:35.932)
that sounds horrible.

Lindsay Hiken (26:52.681)
weird.

Amy Outman (26:54.414)
But it's really just the body freaking out. Like we need to take care of this. as I understand it, this is for my doctor that if, yeah, if you address it and take, you know, they have lots of over the counter medications, know, CBS has a whole section. You realize what an uncommon problem it is. You know, you take a 14 day dose or a 30 day dose, it usually goes away. But if it doesn't, people have to go on it for a long time, rest of their lives sometimes. I know people that take a

Lindsay Hiken (26:59.218)
Huh.

Lindsay Hiken (27:09.725)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (27:22.845)
Holy cow.

Amy Outman (27:23.98)
Yeah, yeah. but hopefully that's, yeah. And hopefully, you know, it's like, it's, if it is the CPAP, that would be a good, that's better than having something wrong with your Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (27:26.279)
I'm going to try to avoid that.

Lindsay Hiken (27:35.338)
Right. definitely. you know, other, my mom, so sleep apnea does all, they know it does all these horrible things to your body because lack of oxygen really is harmful to your organs. And when you're supposed to be recovering, like we get into REM sleep and deep sleep for a reason.

You can't if your sleep apnea is not being treated because your windpipe collapses on itself and then you have to wake up because you're not getting oxygen. So you never really get that working degree. But my stepfather died of gallial blastoma, which is a really aggressive, gnarly, untreatable brain tumor. And

Amy Outman (28:02.774)
Yeah, your body's protecting you.

Lindsay Hiken (28:20.137)
My mom donates to research for glial blastoma because it is currently a decent. If you get it, you're dead. They can do surgery and they can give you steroids to prolong life, but you're not going to live. You're not going to outlive this thing. They did a surgery, they did steroids, they did treatment, and he lived 15 months, which is...

extra long. It's long for someone with glial blastoma to live that long. At the same time, my stepfather had a woman in the program over in Palo Alto. Her husband was diagnosed. Her husband was diagnosed like maybe like two weeks after my stepfather and he was dead in six weeks. And so and he was an ultra distance runner, super healthy guy, like vegetarian, like super healthy guy. But one of the

things my mom donates to does all this research and they are starting to connect sleep apnea with glial blastoma because they don't know what causes the glial blastoma. There's no, so they're starting to connect those two. And so my mom, my mom also has sleep apnea. She's like, I hate wearing this thing, but I'm, I do not want to get that. And I'm like, and you can almost feel it. It's like, I feel.

Amy Outman (29:23.694)
Amy Outman (29:36.184)
That's right. Wow.

Lindsay Hiken (29:41.947)
I feel exhausted. My brain is exhausted. You know what I have that deep feeling and it's like, I could see how my brain would just be like, I'm making a tumor right now. Like, I don't know what's happening. I can't, you know, I could. So.

Amy Outman (29:45.294)
Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh.

Yipes. Yeah. Yeah. My brain, that was my brain felt really tired too. That was the first time that had ever happened to me. That freaked me out. Like I couldn't take in information. I couldn't really listen to things in my AirPods. I couldn't, I just needed to be quiet. Yeah. So yeah, if you're feeling it. So have you already, have you gotten back on the machine?

Lindsay Hiken (30:11.369)
It's a weird feeling.

Hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (30:18.437)
No, I'm going to do it tonight. Tonight's my first night. He told me two days ago and I was like, okay, I got to do it. I got to go get the distilled water and blah, blah, blah. And so I'm going to do it.

Amy Outman (30:20.302)
Okay. Okay. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have the machines like developed? Like are they getting less intrusive? they? Okay. Okay. Uh huh.

Lindsay Hiken (30:36.393)
still a hose going to your face. Like I have a new machine. It's nice. It's sleeker looking. It's smaller, but the hose is the same hose because it needs to blow a certain amount of air because what it's doing is it's blowing enough air so that when your windpipe collapses, it just stays open. Because it's kind of like this. When you get into deep sleep, your brain gives out a signal for your muscles to all relax, except for muscles that you need, like your lung, your heart.

Amy Outman (30:53.878)
Okay, wow.

Amy Outman (31:05.922)
Yeah, of course.

Lindsay Hiken (31:06.971)
And your air path is one of those things that's not supposed to relax, but it's getting the same message that your limbs are getting. So it just collapses on itself because it's like, relax time. And so the CPAP basically blows air in there so that it's just holding it open. it's going to never, I mean, the CPAP is never going to be like.

Amy Outman (31:21.378)
Huh.

Amy Outman (31:28.471)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (31:35.454)
to streamline with that air because it has that's the whole way it works is blowing this air in there. But so then they have the dental dental and if you have a certain level of sleep apnea, they will not even give you that. And I think, you know, it's something that like as my mom has aged hers has gotten worse. So I wonder if just over the last couple of years, mine has gotten worse. And now the dental appliance isn't working. And then they just made an implant.

Amy Outman (31:35.506)
Not blowing air. Yeah. So a point.

Amy Outman (31:58.891)
Mm-hmm. Right. I was wondering about that. We have a friend who went for a consult. She's like, I'm getting the implant. I'm getting the surgery. But she didn't qualify for it. So I'm not sure what that's. You have to have certain. Yeah. Yeah. You have to have certain conditions, I think. Yeah, because we know people that, I know a handful of people that started using a CPAP and their lives just.

Lindsay Hiken (32:09.533)
Yeah, I know who you're talking about.

Amy Outman (32:26.286)
drastically improved. Actually, my husband, yeah, he, I think I was asking you about it. And he got tested and he's kind of like borderline. So we got the machine, we got it home, you know, we rented it. I don't know how many, it was really expensive for some reason. Anyway, we got it home and he was like, that thing is so big and he never took it out of the box for like two months. I ended up returning it. He's like, I won't do it. But he also,

Lindsay Hiken (32:53.141)
huh.

Amy Outman (32:55.232)
He was kind of on the border line, but he was feeling tired and stuff also. It's interesting this like fatigue. I think it's not uncommon. I mean, you're talking about like what's going on in the world and.

Lindsay Hiken (33:00.2)
Yeah.

Amy Outman (33:09.678)
I don't know if it's fear, you know.

Lindsay Hiken (33:10.045)
Mm.

It's all of this stuff, fear, outrage, anger. It's exhausting. It's exhausting, at least for me.

Amy Outman (33:13.974)
It's exhausting.

Yeah, and like fire and viruses. I mean, we do. It's interesting with this whole COVID thing. And it's almost like that's been so politicized, unfortunately, but I just, there are viruses that we share. And I almost, when you said you were feeling exhausted, I think I said to you, I wonder if you've just had what I had, whether it's COVID or some kind of virus that's just feels exhausting.

Lindsay Hiken (33:36.071)
That's a possibility too.

Amy Outman (33:43.351)
And then the other piece maybe I'll mention is that it was really hard for me mentally to, you know, it's hard with certain obligations and, know, I'm not working full time anymore, but just household and, you know, other obligations. It's hard to stand down from that stuff and feel like, you know, come on, Amy, you can go to the store, can't you? Like it's so, but my brain,

I was just so tired and it was hard not to get down on myself and start to feel like, yeah, just get really critical. I feel like I'm lazy or not doing enough or not producing. It was really hard for me mentally just to rest. So, mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (34:24.049)
Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (34:33.627)
Yeah, well, you know, I have a huge issue resting. I have hard time. I have it's tied to my sense of self worth like I kind of grew up in an environment where if you weren't doing something, you know, you weren't really worth anything. And it wasn't even like someone was saying you're not worth anything. Like, I feel like my mom is. Yeah, it does. It's really deep.

Amy Outman (34:53.454)
Mmm.

No, it's like runs deep. Yeah. It's not intellectual. It's like you can intellectually be like, okay, I'm sick and I have a job. But yeah, it's like this deep wiring, really deep. It's like you got to be out there.

Lindsay Hiken (35:04.84)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (35:12.369)
And in my industry, there's like a sort of culture of working a lot of hours, like a lot of accountants are like, I, you know, I work 80 hours a week as if that's something to be proud of. And it's like, well, you don't have a life. So outside of work, which is, I don't know, is that a point of, you know, pride? But.

Amy Outman (35:24.653)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (35:32.618)
But this is a culture and public accounting is to work long hours. if you stop and take a nap in the middle of the day or take care of yourself or leave on time or whatever, there can be this sort of like, I'm not really doing the thing. At the same time at my age, I'm like, fuck this. I don't want to work at it. I shouldn't have to. It's ridiculous. So I kind of battle because there's part of me that's like, you can take care of yourself.

Amy Outman (35:42.414)
and

Lindsay Hiken (36:02.981)
And you don't need to work yourself to death, like for what? And then there's this other part of me, like, you're not good enough if you don't work yourself to death. So.

Amy Outman (36:06.166)
Yeah.

Amy Outman (36:11.982)
And you know, the part is too, when we finally do rest and we feel better, when we feel better, we do better. And then we're available to work harder and show up in the world and be of service and do the things that are ultimately better. So yeah, just that's a little bit of a hard one to recognize in the moment. Yeah, we're not feeling great.

Lindsay Hiken (36:17.906)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (36:27.773)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (36:33.225)
Yeah, Self-care is difficult. It can be. Some people are great at it. I was good at it when I thought self-care was like getting my nails done.

Amy Outman (36:40.268)
Mm-hmm. I can't be. Uh-huh.

Amy Outman (36:48.938)
I know, totally different thing. it's funny, I think, you know, the young people, Gen Alpha, or maybe it's Gen Z, they can kind of shake their heads at the whole self care thing. Because I think our generation, we're talking about it, but also we were raised in a different era where it was like, you got to go out there and hustle and you got to work hard and support yourself and just don't stop.

Lindsay Hiken (36:58.504)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (37:10.124)
don't accept help and don't rely on other people. I mean, that was a big message as a young woman for me, don't rely on anyone. You can do it yourself. But I think they kind of laugh at this whole self-care thing, but we're in recovery from our childhood and our young adulthood. I think they have a slightly different perspective. And some of them are like, they say it's self-care, but it isn't.

Lindsay Hiken (37:13.116)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (37:18.184)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (37:30.057)
100%.

Yeah.

Amy Outman (37:37.251)
What I've seen younger generations, some millennials and Gen Z is they do, there can be an indulgence there, but that's not what I'm talking about. Right? It's not, no, it's not calling in sick when you're not sick to go, I don't know, like go have your spa day. Right, right, right. We're talking about, right, like eating three meals and.

Lindsay Hiken (37:46.192)
Right, right.

Lindsay Hiken (37:51.722)
Right. Right. Like that's fun and you could do that, but that's not the self-care we're talking about, Gen Xers.

Amy Outman (38:04.598)
it's getting a good night's sleep and yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (38:08.297)
They didn't really have, feel like younger generations, they've got their own challenges. look at, mean, politically and in the world, I didn't feel as unsafe as I do now, you know? Even if it wasn't perfectly safe, I felt, I did not feel the way I feel now. But, but.

Amy Outman (38:15.192)
fair.

Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (38:28.561)
It's funny because younger generations were raised by Gen Xers and we were treated like children should be seen and not heard. Here's a latchkey kid. You just go home, take care of your 10 years old. Drink up. Yeah, don't just get out there and.

Amy Outman (38:37.287)
All right, drink out of the hose, go play outside, don't come home before dinner, you know, just get out there. Yeah. Well, I think we, I mean, I've helicoptered a little, I tried not to, but I wanted to offer my kids what it was that I thought that I didn't have and needed. And so, yeah, I was always kind of catering to them until, yeah, kind of kicked me in the butt. And I realized that wasn't such a great strategy.

Lindsay Hiken (38:53.171)
Didn't have. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (39:05.297)
Yeah, yeah, but it's, I don't know, it's a better strategy than being like, your value is, you know, I mean, because I felt like my opinions or whatever were completely devalued when I was a child. Like I had a thought or something and tried to express it. was like, yeah, you don't know what you're talking about your child. So I guess the helicoptering is also not it's the pendulum swings too far to the other side, but it's better in a lot of ways. And I can think of

Amy Outman (39:06.284)
Yeah.

Amy Outman (39:17.464)
head.

Amy Outman (39:22.638)
.

Amy Outman (39:28.31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (39:34.206)
when I had this long and treacherous journey with my children growing up. once we kind of, was sober and we got it together, I remember treating them in a certain way and being told by external forces, let's say, being critical of me for not like,

Amy Outman (39:55.906)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (40:03.657)
for not not punishing, but for not for being like for around something like you shouldn't do for saying you shouldn't you shouldn't do this that the other I don't like the way you're doing this, you know, and for making not making them do certain things or certain behaviors. And I was like, they don't need to. Why did they need to? Why do I have to tell them not to do something if they're not hurt? Like, it's fine. But it's because

Amy Outman (40:09.998)
setting boundaries or.

Amy Outman (40:24.92)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (40:33.651)
poop person telling me is like a boomer. And the way that they they raise a Gen X or you know what I mean? And we were told not to do shit. Shut the fuck up. Right. And so the fact that I wasn't making my kids be small and unseen was like, I mean, it's not it's not good for the kids to be like, No, it's fine. It's fine. I think a lot of Gen X is like, Yeah, yeah, they do. They do.

Amy Outman (40:51.586)
Yeah, they've got it boys.

Yeah, yeah, we respect them as, yeah, people, human, as human beings. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (40:59.379)
human beings.

Yeah, so I think we went, we went off.

Amy Outman (41:10.862)
Yeah, we did a little, I was like, gonna try to loop it back to the kind of that just original programming that we got and, you know, being open to outside criticism and being open. You're just looking at things a different way. And I appreciate that. I appreciate, yeah, just some of that feedback around my kids. Like my instinct was to hover and helicopter parent a little bit because I was like,

Lindsay Hiken (41:20.477)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (41:35.719)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Outman (41:37.431)
I felt neglected. I felt like my parents, like, did they actually care what I was doing? So I did the opposite, but it did kind of take an, was, you know, it got to a point where it helped. Like you said, outside forces, I had to take, in this case, I took someone else's, you know, opinion. They're like, you know, you're, you're miserable, trying to do too much for your kids and they're pushing you away. They don't want you to do that much for them. They want to grow up and individuate. And so.

Lindsay Hiken (41:42.397)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (41:57.555)
Right.

Amy Outman (42:03.566)
it felt scary to kind of let go and let them do that, let them grow up and take care of themselves. And I had to stand down. So that's a, I don't know. That's a one way of, yeah. Yeah. Taking some of that in and trying someone else's advice. And even though it didn't come naturally to me.

Lindsay Hiken (42:12.338)
Yeah.

you

Lindsay Hiken (42:21.838)
It's all about balance, I think, you know? It's like if you drink too much, then there's a problem. If you're someone who can drink a little bit, then it's fine. you helicopter your kids too hard, that could be problematic. If you ignore them and throw them outside till dark, that's also... Yeah, moderation is a hard thing for me to do, but...

Amy Outman (42:25.069)
Yeah.

Amy Outman (42:30.433)
Uh-huh.

Amy Outman (42:36.234)
Yes. Right. Moderation. Yeah.

Yep, yep.

Lindsay Hiken (42:49.981)
But I'm glad we got a chance to talk about self care and all of the things working out, kids. It's been good. I've been enjoying our chat today. Yeah.

Amy Outman (42:52.194)
Yeah

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. It's all part of it. All part of the soup. Yeah, me too, Lindsay. Thanks for having me back on your podcast. I love your podcast. I listen to every episode and I just found you on YouTube. So I just subscribed. I'm now a subscriber. I've been a subscriber. You know what I use. I use Apple. Yeah, but it's a different subscription, correct? On YouTube.

Lindsay Hiken (43:11.867)
awesome.

Lindsay Hiken (43:19.247)
A of fire apple. Yeah.

Amy Outman (43:25.195)
another.

Lindsay Hiken (43:25.481)
It's basically the same ones. Occasionally, Mike and I have done ones that are just us chatting that are on there that aren't, you but it's mostly so because people are starting to listen, starting to watch their podcasts. They want to see the people who are doing the podcast talking. So like ours will be up there and they'll be able to see you and I.

Amy Outman (43:35.702)
okay.

Amy Outman (43:41.505)
Uh-huh.

Amy Outman (43:47.521)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (43:48.254)
The downside is that we use Riverside, which is a really good app, but it doesn't have any filters on the camera. can't filter your looks. All right. What you see is what you get on this thing. Trust me, I would love a filter. But yeah, so that's on YouTube. so listeners, if you want to see what people look like when they're talking, I know for me, I like to...

Amy Outman (43:54.925)
I know. I came on, I asked Lindsay, I'm like, is there a filter or something we could use? She's like, sorry.

Oh, yeah, that's Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (44:15.849)
kind of get a picture of what people are. And I think that's what is happening now with podcasts. People go and they see what their podcaster looks like and what the guests look like. And so that's kind of what YouTube is for.

Amy Outman (44:18.091)
Yeah.

Amy Outman (44:24.768)
Yeah, I've been doing that. a big, I'm a big podcast listener. So I've actually been going over to YouTube and watching some of them. It's really entertaining. Yeah. Yeah. So please tell Mike, said, hello, I'm sorry he couldn't join us, but is he, and he's, he's traveling for work and he also has his marathon coming up, I think at the end of this month, right? Uh-huh.

Lindsay Hiken (44:30.633)
Same. Mm-hmm. I will. I know.

Lindsay Hiken (44:40.841)
He has a marathon. Yeah, it's coming up. Yep, it's in October. It's this month. And I think he's in like Idaho or something right now for work. So he's probably, you know, not as excited about going as he is about going to DC soon and running.

Amy Outman (44:46.007)
Okay.

Amy Outman (44:56.814)
Oh, is he going to DC? Oh, he's doing the DC, the, um, Oh, the Marine Corps. I love that. I've never done it, but I, when I first moved to DC, I'd go down there in Georgetown to the street corner and just like cry my eyes out, watching everyone compete in that. It's so touching. So special. Um, it's wonderful. He's doing that one. Yes.

Lindsay Hiken (45:00.025)
Marine Corps Marine Corps marathon. Yeah

Lindsay Hiken (45:12.435)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (45:20.091)
Yep. Yes. And he's doing it, I think with some guys he was in Iraq with. So it's pretty special. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Amy Outman (45:25.64)
Fantastic, fantastic. That'll feel good. Good, and then we've got our half marathon New Year's Day. Yeah, and our tailgate party. Yeah, me too. I actually, you know what?

Lindsay Hiken (45:32.839)
That's right.

Lindsay Hiken (45:37.203)
Super excited for that, I can't wait. That's such a good way to kick off the year.

Amy Outman (45:42.038)
Yeah, I hadn't, I still need to sign up. I didn't sign up because I was like, I don't know how I'm going to feel. I've, you know, I had to cancel so much of my life and I wasn't feeling good. but I feel confident that I can sign up and you know, we can always hike it or like go down to the 10 K or the five K whatever. It's fun having it on the, on the calendar. Yeah, that's right. I'll be there for the tailgate.

Lindsay Hiken (45:57.353)
Hike it.

Lindsay Hiken (46:01.642)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever gets you there for the tailgate. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (46:11.677)
Whatever gets you there for the tailgate is all good.

Amy Outman (46:13.528)
That's right. That's right. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (46:16.455)
Alright folks, so we will say goodbye for now and we'll see you next week. Thanks for listening.

Amy Outman (46:25.049)
Bye.