The Western States Experience: Trials and Triumphs

Join us on a journey through the highs and lows of ultra running with Loren Lewis, as he shares his gripping experiences at the Western States. From the anticipation of the lottery to the grueling race day challenges, Loren opens up about the mental and physical trials he faced, the lessons learned, and the triumphs achieved. Whether you're an aspiring ultra runner or a seasoned athlete, Loren's story of resilience and determination is sure to inspire. Tune in for insights on training, race strategy, and the importance of community support in the world of ultra running.

#ultrarunning #westernstates100 #westernstates #endruanceathlete #endurancesports #trailrunning

Thanks for listening to the Ginger and Chocolate Podcast. Check out our website at gingerandchocolate.com to get in touch with us. Follow us on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram @ginger_and_chocolate_podcast; and please subscribe to the show and select automatic downloads on your podcast app.

Transcript

Lindsay Hiken (00:01.742)
Welcome to the Ginger and Chocolate podcast. I am Lindsay and I have a co-host Mike who you all know, but he is camping today. So it's just me and our guest, Lauren Lewis. Hi Lauren, how are you doing?

Loren (00:15.269)
Doing good, how are you Lindsay? It's been a while, good to see you.

Lindsay Hiken (00:17.07)
doing great. It's been a while. think I can't remember exactly how long since you were on the show before, but I think it was like 2021 or 20. Yeah, 2021. So it's 2025. Now, can you believe it? Time is flying. So since we saw you back in. I believe in 2021, you were going to race Western states. Is that right? And you had a 24 hour goal.

Loren (00:41.763)
Yep. Yep.

Loren (00:45.883)
Goal. I had a 24 hour goal. Like when I was in the race in 2021. So I had been on the wait list in 2019 and made it all the way up to number two on the wait list. And I didn't run in 2019. But that's relevant because like I basically started training for 2021 Western States in 2019. Because yeah, was on the wait list.

Lindsay Hiken (00:47.357)
Hahaha

Lindsay Hiken (01:11.17)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (01:15.259)
was ready to go at Palisades, but didn't make it to the top of the waitlist, so didn't run. And then I got picked in the actual lottery for the 2020 run, but the 2020 run didn't happen because 2020, COVID, right? So that rolled to 2021. So I basically had three years to train for the 2021 Western States. No, it was great.

Lindsay Hiken (01:28.302)
Hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (01:39.299)
my God, that's good, that's good.

Loren (01:45.084)
And I wanted to try and run sub 24, like, you know, that you get the different buckle, you get the silver buckle and it's, uh, you know, a hundred miles one day legit. Um, so, uh, I kind of went all in on the training, all in on the effort. Um, but I, but I didn't make it. I, like, I didn't make it. I was, uh, I felt like I, I feel like I was in good enough shape, but just executing over that amount of time is.

Lindsay Hiken (01:48.066)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (02:13.528)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (02:14.501)
hard enough that I just didn't pull it off.

Lindsay Hiken (02:17.314)
So I want to hear all about your race, before that, I want to hear about this wait list. You were at Palisade, so you could get called at the last minute on the wait list. Wow.

Loren (02:26.447)
The way it works at Western States is the run starts Saturday at 5 a.m. They close the entrance list Friday at 1 p.m. So that means until Friday at 1 p.m. you can drop out of the race and keep your tickets, Like whatever tickets you had in the lottery, if you drop out before Friday at 1 p.m. you keep those tickets.

And then they call up the next person from the wait list. So the guy in front of me on the wait list was from Georgia. he came all the way, he came from Georgia to like not knowing he was in the race to get picked on the wait list. The guy, the guy, one spot in front of that was from Japan. Yeah. So when I was standing,

Lindsay Hiken (03:11.79)
Wow.

Lindsay Hiken (03:19.554)
Wow.

And he got picked, right? The guy from Japan was...

Loren (03:24.865)
No, the guy from Japan did not get So one and two to not get picked was the guy from Japan and me. I might have explained that a little upside down, but yeah, the first guy to not get picked was the guy from Japan and then me. And so I was standing next to the guy. Actually, you know, it was kind of cool, Lindsay, because it'd be really easy for me to feel sorry for myself.

Lindsay Hiken (03:30.926)
Ugh.

Lindsay Hiken (03:35.96)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (03:53.487)
Like, I made it up to number two on the wait list. I drove to Tahoe. I've been hanging out all week. And I'm not going to get picked. But the guy next to me was from Japan. Like, he flew all the way from Japan. And he had a really nice trip. he and I are now friends. There's another Japanese runner in the area, Kuni. Everybody knows Kuni. And Kuni hosted this guy.

Lindsay Hiken (04:03.894)
Right.

Loren (04:22.628)
took him out running on the trails. he had a week in the area of enjoying the trails and stuff like that. But yeah, this guy came from, so yes, you can get picked on the wait list right up until Friday at one o'clock. And if you are from anywhere in the world, I'm California based. It was easy for me to just go, right? But if you're from anywhere in the world, you kind of got to, you know, you're like, okay, maybe this is my chance to run Western States. I got to be there, right?

Lindsay Hiken (04:29.08)
That's cool.

Lindsay Hiken (04:42.733)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (04:46.638)
Show up.

Lindsay Hiken (04:51.02)
Right, right. And you have to have trained because it's go time, right? It's not like you get to know months in advance. That's amazing. In a way, it's kind of cool because it keeps you training. And like you said, it kept you engaged. And you got to train for three years.

Loren (05:08.044)
It was, so in hindsight, okay, two things. Number one, that was going to be my second Western States. So I'd already won West, or run won. That was a slip of the tongue. Run Western States. Like I'd already run Western States. So if, that kind of gave me some ease, right? Obviously, right? If it's your first Western States and you think this might be your only chance, that adds a lot of weight.

to how you manage the wait list. With a finish under my belt, I was just like, okay, I'm part of the experience, I'm part of the conversation. My training has intent, I have all this focus. And if I end up at Palisades standing next to a guy from Japan, it's a good story, right?

Lindsay Hiken (05:40.628)
Mm hmm. totally.

Lindsay Hiken (06:05.866)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Loren (06:07.194)
I was really at peace with all that. I have friends who have been on the wait list and run, and I have friends who have been on the wait list and not run, got really close and not run. They really struggled with how much do I plan, how much do I train. I didn't. I was just like, I'm all in. I'm all in. When it comes to the planning, I'm going to go super light on crew and stuff like that, right? Because you know,

Lindsay Hiken (06:23.148)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (06:34.54)
Mm hmm. Right. Right, right.

Loren (06:36.602)
You don't want to waste their time, right? But I'm just going to have one drop bag and I'm going to be fit. And it works.

Lindsay Hiken (06:45.486)
That's awesome. So tell us a little bit about the actual race, the race day, like how long it took and what, what the highlights were, what the challenges were.

Loren (06:55.386)
Oh man, I was in such great shape. was so fit. so Duncan Canyon is my club's aid station. We are in charge of or host the mile 25-ish, I think it's 23 or something. I should know, right? I'm the co-captain. I know how to get there. But yeah, so it's about the quarter point.

Lindsay Hiken (07:16.983)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (07:20.993)
Heh heh.

Loren (07:25.87)
I've been associated with that aid station. I've been going to that aid station since 2013. so it was really important to me to just to come in hot, right? To come into that aid station on time, feeling good, you know, and I, but to get from Palisades to Duncan Canyon, that's the high country section. That's

Lindsay Hiken (07:52.142)
you

Loren (07:52.183)
know, arguably the hardest part of the course. It doesn't have the most vertical climbing, but you're at the highest altitude and the terrain is tough. So I invested a lot in getting into Duncan Canyon fast, and I think I kind of blew it. Like, I think I kind of blew it. Duncan Canyon is, like I said, it's like, think mile 23. Robinson Flat is like mile 30.

Lindsay Hiken (08:10.166)
Ha.

Loren (08:20.504)
And by the time I got to Robinson flat, was feeling like I can't, like I can't keep this up anymore. Right. Like, and I was really, really, really like really invested, like three years invested in that sub 24 finish. And I did not have, I didn't, all this is years of hindsight and reflection. Right. None of this, I didn't know any of this on race day. but like, I just, there was no plan B like.

Lindsay Hiken (08:25.74)
ever.

Lindsay Hiken (08:34.765)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (08:42.636)
Sure.

Loren (08:49.914)
It was sub 24 bust. And when I got into Robinson flat, saw my crew. said, they, they said I had the a hundred miles stare. Like that, like the kind of the look of like, like almost like a look of like panic and fear. Like I was still moving, but I was like afraid. And that was what was going on. was like, you know, was like, it was like, I don't know. Like this is mile 30. I don't know how I can do this from for 70 more miles. And, and, and I, and I don't have another plan.

Lindsay Hiken (08:49.986)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (09:00.43)
you

Lindsay Hiken (09:06.53)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (09:16.942)
All right.

Loren (09:19.386)
started cramping really, really bad leaving Robinson flat, again, because I over-invested in the high country. And then, I don't know, by Dusty Corners, which is like mile 40, I started sitting around and walking. And what I mean by sitting around is I'm like sitting in the aid stations telling them that I can't run the way I want to run. And they're like, you're moving just fine. And I'm like, yeah, but I can't run the way I want to run. And I'm sitting there waiting for them to say like,

Do you wanna drop? I'm waiting for somebody to tell me it's okay to quit, right? And they just wouldn't, you know? They, you know, just like, well, what's wrong? My legs hurt. You're running a 100 mile race. Of course your legs hurt. you know, are you able to move? Like, I'm moving really, really well, just not fast. I'm not gonna finish with the time I want. Get out of here. They're like,

Lindsay Hiken (09:49.13)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (09:54.634)
Mm-hmm.

Ha!

Lindsay Hiken (10:08.789)
right.

Loren (10:17.015)
Get out of here. you like you literally get thrown out of the aid station. in about mile 50, I was having a similar experience. I was on a cot. Somebody was putting KT tape on my legs. I was feeling sorry for myself. The captain walked up to me. The aid station captain walked up to me and he said, Hey, look, man, go quit somewhere else. Which was one of the greatest things I've ever heard.

Lindsay Hiken (10:43.31)
Wow.

Loren (10:46.881)
because I think it's like a life lesson, like go quit somewhere else.

Lindsay Hiken (10:53.004)
Yeah.

Loren (10:55.604)
Take the next step and then reassess. And then take the next step and reassess. And take the next step and reassess, right? Go quit somewhere else. And yeah, I got to my crew at Mile 52. I told them, I said, great news. You can all go have dinner with your families.

Like, we don't have to do this anymore, we're done. And they said, no, we're not done. We're gonna finish the race. And I was a big pouty mess. But once the sun started to come up, I got to, and I got to Alt, is Coastside Running Club. They were amazing. They were expecting me so much sooner, but they were just so happy that I got there.

Lindsay Hiken (11:25.719)
Right.

Loren (11:51.532)
And yeah, and I finished the race. Like, I spent hours in cots and chairs, like feeling sorry for myself. Did you hear that? Pardon me.

Lindsay Hiken (12:04.398)
Yes, no worries. So for the listener, Lauren has cats and they decided that this morning is the time for them to battle it out somehow. they're like fighting.

Loren (12:14.713)
Work out there, whatever unresolved issues they have, they want to work it out right now. So between alt and the finish line, I passed like 100 people. I totally came alive and I started running again. It's a good news, bad news story for me.

I am so embarrassed that I spent so much time trying to quit, trying to sabotage my own race. Western states, know, people like, people wanting to into that race so bad. And I spent so much time trying to sabotage my, like my own race. But my crew wouldn't let me quit. The volunteers wouldn't let me quit. Like, and I finished.

Lindsay Hiken (12:54.446)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Loren (13:14.123)
And I have this one memory, and I know I've just been talking nonstop for a while, like only interrupted by cats, but I have this one memory where I'm trying to tell my crew, like, we're done, we're done, we're going to the hotel, we're going to the hotel. I know I can finish this race, but I don't want to spend all that time walking around in the dark. But then I ask them for my socks. I say, can I have those clean socks? And...

I don't know, to me that was a moment because obviously somewhere in my brain I wasn't quitting. I asked for the socks. I put on clean socks and I put on the clean socks because I knew I was gonna leave that aid station even though I was begging somebody to tell me it was okay to go to the hotel.

Lindsay Hiken (13:48.17)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (13:51.841)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (14:01.24)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, and you feel like that was all about the fact that you weren't gonna do, have the race that you thought you were gonna have? The reason I ask is that I regularly when I'm doing a race have a battle in my head about like, I don't have to do this, I could just stop doing this right now. And I wanna stop because it's painful, I'm tired.

All of these, all of the things my brain can conjure up. Why am I out here? I've told the story about being in Santa Cruz and having a really bad swim and having a scary swim and being like, this is why black people don't do this shit. This is some white people shit, you know, in the water. We don't, you know, cause there are sharks out here. We know better, you know, and just all of that stuff. But it sounds like your race was more like,

Loren (14:46.787)
You

Lindsay Hiken (14:56.3)
I'm not doing what I want to do and so therefore I don't want to do it. Is that a better more accurate or was it partially pain and suffering?

Loren (15:04.951)
No, was, I'm not living up to my own expectations. I...

I had a very well-defined goal in mind. It was yes or no, and it's no, and today is no.

Lindsay Hiken (15:19.95)
Mm.

Loren (15:27.373)
So I understand, professional athletes who make a living doing this and stuff like that, I can sort of understand when they're not having their day that the right thing to do is to stop, right? Save that effort for, if today's not today, save that effort for another time. But.

Lindsay Hiken (15:39.528)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Loren (15:51.137)
I wasn't going to win Western States and it's Western States. it's like, I can't just like, I'll try again next year. Right. Like, so, so you, I don't want to say you have to, but you should have a plan B. You, you should have a plan for if I'm not going to run my a race today, like this is how I'm going to get to the finish line. Right. And,

Lindsay Hiken (15:55.125)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (16:16.302)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Loren (16:20.856)
and be grateful and happy, like rather than just brutalizing yourself for hours, you know, like you suck, you're not gonna make it, like, you know, like.

Lindsay Hiken (16:34.742)
Yeah.

Loren (16:36.374)
was crazy. That was a crazy way to spend half a day. Don't do that. Don't do that. But I feel like I learned that lesson. I feel like I learned that lesson. And Lindsay, I can't believe it, but since we last spoke, I've run Western states twice.

Lindsay Hiken (16:40.684)
Mm-hmm. It's not recommended. Wow.

Lindsay Hiken (17:00.554)
Really? Wow.

Loren (17:03.572)
And I nailed it the second time, which was my third Western States, but the second time since we last spoke. But yeah, like, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (17:06.528)
Really? Third time? Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (17:13.59)
And did you reach your goal on that one? Or come close? you didn't have that helps.

Loren (17:16.16)
I didn't have a goal. didn't have a goal. So, I did. I did have a goal. I did have a goal to be present and grateful and yeah, that was my goal and I crushed it.

Lindsay Hiken (17:32.087)
Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. that's a good lesson for everybody. know, the it's not always it's like, yes, a goal, like a time goal or something like that is probably helpful when you're training. You know, it can be helpful, I suppose, when you're training. But sort of doing the footwork and then letting go of the results is probably the best thing to do in a long race like that, because

Loren (17:50.552)
Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (17:59.959)
Like you said, you can expend a lot of energy worrying about not having the race that you plan on having. And my experience with running, and I've never run anything as long as you guys run, but my experience running even short runs is that.

It's unreliable in the sense that I don't have the same run every day. No two runs are alike and sometimes they really suck. Even if they're short, I just hate it the whole time. It's just painful. My legs hurt or whatever. can't generate any real power. don't have. And then a different day I'll go out there and you know, feel amazing the whole time. And so trying to get that, that amazing feeling.

to coincide with a race day, feel like is, you know, can be challenging with running. I feel like more than anything for me, between the three disciplines, running is the one that's the least reliable in terms of how I'm gonna perform.

Loren (18:57.432)
I think you touched on like a couple of really important points there. One of them is like for training, goals matter for training, right? Like the day in, day out routine, which is the most important thing, you know, like that will carry you to the finish line of life, right? Like all those good habits. But you kind of need goals to like,

to drive those things, right? Like there has to be, I call it the or else, right? There has to be some or else, right? Like I'm gonna get up at 4.30 in the morning or else. Otherwise I'm not gonna get up at 4.30 in the morning, right? But the other thing is it's like in the day, if you're a professional athlete and there's sponsorships and all that stuff, that's a different.

Lindsay Hiken (19:33.454)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (19:57.177)
That's a different topic, I guess. But for folks like us, I guess, in that event, it can't be that kind of or else, right? It can't be 24 hours or else.

Lindsay Hiken (20:07.448)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (20:12.728)
When I ran Western States in 2024, that was the good year. Like I was nowhere near as fit in 2021. And that was part of it, was knowing that like I just didn't have that fitness. And I was like, okay.

I have to like, so first of all, that what am I going to do when it gets hard? It gets hard when the alarm goes off in the morning. Like I need to be ready, like for a fight from the, from the get go. And I need to be in that this is going to be hard mentality from the very, very jump. I can't be, I can't find myself in an, no, what now? Right.

Lindsay Hiken (20:36.258)
Right.

Loren (20:53.706)
And the other thing was, like, partly because I didn't have the fitness, you know, it was like, if I finished, this is going to be, that will be a thing, right? That will be a thing. It will, you know what? It'll be a miracle. So just go out there and just hang in there. Just hang in there and enjoy that you're out there. Be ready for a fight.

Lindsay Hiken (21:05.186)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (21:23.23)
And yeah, was pretty terrific. there's, you know, people take pictures of you along the course when you're running Western States. I was always smiling. I looked so happy, like all day and all night. Like, I looked so happy. yeah. Totally.

Lindsay Hiken (21:38.382)
That's awesome.

Lindsay Hiken (21:44.527)
Just a completely different vibe than 2021. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. just out of curiosity, because I feel like, well, total tangent, but I'm not sure my body would cooperate if I tried to run it in ultra. It doesn't seem to want to cooperate with a lot of my training right now. But one of my big, the big scary thing for me

would be the middle of the night when people talk about kind of hallucinating and just being like a little a lot out of it. Do you experience that? Because I know some people don't experience that. It seems like most have something.

Loren (22:26.871)
I do, my eyes get, like my eyes get really tired. Absolutely, and your brain gets tired too. So you tell it like, like that is, so that's definitely a real thing. I do what I call I-Naps, which seem to really, really help. And so sometimes late in the afternoon, I'll.

go into an aid station and I'll say, hey, everything's fine, I'm okay, but I need six minutes. I want you to set a timer for six minutes and leave me alone. Please don't bother me for those six minutes, but at the end of that six minutes, come get me. And I just close my eyes, right? And I'm sure that there's an element of rest going on in my mind and body, but the main thing is my actual eyes.

Lindsay Hiken (23:03.086)
Mm.

Lindsay Hiken (23:13.918)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (23:20.777)
Yeah.

Loren (23:25.471)
Like to just, you know, they've been looking at reflected sunlight all day. They're getting ready to start the night where they're going to be looking into a flashlight. Like, I was, I was running a hundred mile race, Headlands hundred. and I was really, really struggling. I couldn't see, like, I could see like things like light, light and the absence of light, but I couldn't make out.

Lindsay Hiken (23:30.807)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (23:36.022)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (23:53.454)
Mm.

Loren (23:56.074)
Relevant information. It was just light and absence of light, right? And so out of necessity I stopped and closed my eyes and then after a few minutes I got going again and I felt much better and and that was when I was like, okay This is a thing. This is like I rest if you're not fast enough to finish before it gets dark You know, like I rest is a thing right for me So yeah, that's a real thing for me, but I like but I've kind of figured that's my little

Lindsay Hiken (23:57.856)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (24:11.246)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (24:16.801)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Loren (24:25.825)
how I manage it.

Lindsay Hiken (24:26.104)
Hmm. That's cool. I can relate to the eye problem just from doing Iron Man, because I'm not fast enough to finish in the daylight if it's you know, and on an Iron Man Santa Rosa, you run through along the river, which is lovely because it's dirt. So which is nice because a lot of Iron Man, you know, you're on the road for that marathon, and you're getting kind of beat up. But the the along the river, there's no light.

there are no streetlights or anything. And so they gave us all headlamps, which is fine because I'd run with my team at night in the dark. But I think that just seeing these pinpoints of light and not seeing anything else was really, challenging.

It challenged my vision, first of all, because like you said, I could just see these pinpoints of light in front of me where other people had headlamps and I could see nothing else except for right where my headlamp was shining. And then I could see and then there was just dark. And the other part of that was that they had cleared out all the people that kind of lived in the park and and hung out and did drugs in the park for the Iron Man. And then once it was dark, these people were like, what are they going to do? They can't see me. And.

Loren (25:44.407)
Thank

Lindsay Hiken (25:45.825)
I heard a rustling in the bushes at one point and there was a dude like a scary dude with a cane just sitting there staring at me as I was like shuffling along and I'm like time to pick up the cause my my I was doing a run walk. He was I picked it up pretty and I was like I'm going to just run faster till I get with another group of little of tiny little lights. But yeah the vision and I was tired and my eyes were burning and all of that. So I relate and I was only going you know.

Loren (25:56.503)
He's your new Pacer.

Lindsay Hiken (26:14.358)
marathon not not 100 miles. Look, there's one of the cats of black cats starting shit. He looked like when he just looked into the camera, he looked like he was a troublemaker or she

Loren (26:20.503)
Thank

Loren (26:28.055)
He's the big guy. He's the big guy around here.

Lindsay Hiken (26:33.632)
Okay, so I know that we talked a little bit before we started recording that you are doing some race directing as well. So not just racing, but some directing races. Tell me a little bit about getting into that and then what races you're doing and kind of what it's like. Because I don't think I've ever spoken to a race director before.

Loren (26:52.119)
Yeah, like, uh, that's so I'm a member of the quick Quicksilver running club, um, active member of the Quicksilver running club. Like I was, uh, aid station. I ran their race 2013. The back then it was the 50 miler, 50 K. Now it's the 50 K, a hundred K. Um, we made that change when, uh, Western States changed the

Lindsay Hiken (27:17.198)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (27:21.057)
qualifying standards so that we could stay a Western States qualifier. We've been a Western States qualifier for years and years and years, 20, 30 years. also host the Duncan Canyon Aid Station at Western States as part of our longstanding affiliation with that race.

Lindsay Hiken (27:22.947)
okay.

Loren (27:50.839)
But yeah, so I ran the race in 2013, joined the club, and then in 2014, I signed up for the race and they said, and I was a board member of the club and they said, yeah, you should probably volunteer, like instead of run the race, you know? And I was like, oh yeah, okay, no problem. But I want my own aid station. They said, okay, fine.

I was the captain of the Woods Road aid station for a handful of years. That's the aid station at the top of the Sierra, Sewell Open Space Preserve, kind of like the apex of the most difficult part of the course. So you get a lot of people wanting to drop there and stuff like that, but you can't extract people from there. So it's pretty, kind of a complicated aid station. And then the...

our RD at the time was relocating to the East Coast. And it was kind of one of those situations where, you know, you didn't want somebody too new to do it, you know? So I kind of stepped up, like, I mean, I wasn't dying to be an RD, but I was kind of looking around at who else was gonna do it. And I kind of like, and I...

Lindsay Hiken (29:13.132)
Yeah.

Loren (29:16.855)
I kind of felt a call to action, right? So Quicksilver for the last several years has had two RDs. It was me and Pierre for a year or so, and it's been me and Stuart for the last handful of years. But yeah, so that's how that came to be. So me and Stuart Taylor have been RDs of the Quicksilver 100k, 50k.

Lindsay Hiken (29:18.84)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (29:35.918)
Hmm.

Loren (29:45.473)
For the last few years now, what that entails is permits, porta potties, and junk food.

Lindsay Hiken (29:56.577)
sounds about right. Can you tell me a little bit? So Quicksilver, that in the South Bay? Okay.

Loren (30:02.231)
Yeah, so we are, the park itself is basically in Almoden Valley and Almoden Valley is kind of the southwest part of San Jose that's kind of in the area of 17 and 85 and 87 south and west of there.

Lindsay Hiken (30:27.886)
Okay, okay. And the race goes up. Is that you don't run by Mount Ammonum do you? Is that up there? Okay.

Loren (30:35.06)
We run by it. We don't run over it. but we run by it. So, is in the Sierra Sault open space preserve and about half of our courses in that same open space preserve. we don't run over and just because it's such a popular, like, like everyday weekend hiker that the race would be pretty disruptive.

Lindsay Hiken (30:45.901)
Okay.

Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (31:01.908)
Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense.

Loren (31:03.306)
It would be cool, it would be a very cool feature for the race, but we would pretty much chase all the hikers off the mountain for a day. So, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (31:11.052)
Right. Yeah, that I've done. So the first when they first open, I'm like, then you could ride to the top. I did that ride that first year. And the other thing is they had like a trail race. And it was and it's probably still there. But I think they had a half marathon and a 10 K. I don't know what else they had, but I did the half marathon. And at that point, I was really fit and I had a great race.

I was a second woman, you know, around my age to the top, but I am really bad at running downhill, really bad. And I just my hips start hurting. My technique sucks. can't, you know, I'm just and it was pretty steep in some parts coming down and I got passed by two other women coming down and I was like, damn it. You know, it's just heartening when you.

Loren (31:49.472)
Hmm.

Loren (32:05.11)
All that work all that work climbing them

Lindsay Hiken (32:07.318)
Yeah, exactly. It's like I beat them up the hill and I can't keep them off coming down. I was so just like so frustrated with that. And that was a race that kind of got me trying to figure out and I still haven't figured it out, but started to try to figure out like techniques for running downhill because that's the that's the part of my race that always. Or even just any any day trail run that just kind of falls apart for me.

Loren (32:34.592)
So I was a horrible downhill runner. I'm afraid of heights, right? And some of those same feelings would kick in when I was running downhill. I feel like I've gotten much, much better. And what happened with me, I think it was a very fortunate set of circumstances. I don't know if it could be replicated, but maybe. Basically, this guy I was running with, I started chasing this guy, right?

Lindsay Hiken (32:45.262)
Mm.

Loren (33:03.814)
And what it did is it got my eyes off the ground and onto that guy. And that for me was the game changer. Because if you're looking at the ground running downhill trying to figure out where to put your feet, that's like a very labor intensive process, right? Whereas if you just kind of let your, I don't know, subconscious, whatever the whatever.

Lindsay Hiken (33:09.47)
Lindsay Hiken (33:19.308)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Loren (33:30.73)
those other brain processes that are highly, highly capable and don't require as much direct interaction. Like you just kind of look at the horizon and let your brain worry about like what's going on down here. It was a total game changer for me. And like, and again, like it wasn't like there weren't any drills. just started chasing this guy. His name was Guy Her. I just started chasing Guy and I would lock in on Guy and I stopped paying attention to my feet.

Lindsay Hiken (33:36.334)
Mmm.

Loren (34:00.246)
And it was massive repetition. Now it's just how I run downhill and it's much better. It's much better.

Lindsay Hiken (34:06.702)
wow, okay. I might try that because I've listened to, know, shorten your stride and try to pick your feet back up really, your foot back up really quickly and do this and that. And I still have issues going down.

Loren (34:11.038)
If you

Loren (34:23.99)
If you got some time to intentionally have some fun with it, get somebody that can run in front of you, like somebody faster than you downhill that's willing to just kind of pace you and just play with your horizon. It's your eye horizon. Like to me, that was the biggest game changer with running downhill.

Lindsay Hiken (34:32.653)
Yeah.

Mmm.

Lindsay Hiken (34:41.848)
That's awesome. Okay, I'm going to try that. I'm going to try that. So not only Quicksilver, you also do you co direct another race.

Loren (34:54.338)
yeah, yeah, so it's another Quicksilver race. So our big race is the 100K, 50K in May, but we have a half marathon coming up, October 25th, a half marathon, 10K, and a one mile kids race. And I co-direct that with Laura Braun. That's, you know, it's a much smaller ordeal. Like I think we have like one aid station, maybe two aid stations.

Lindsay Hiken (34:57.505)
Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (35:01.304)
Mm.

Lindsay Hiken (35:10.722)
Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (35:21.698)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (35:22.87)
you know, as opposed to five or six aid stations and multiple permitting, you know, permitting agencies and regulatory districts and yeah, we don't need, like, we don't have to order porta potties as long as we stay under 100 people and we always stay under 100 people. You'll hear me mention porta potties as part of race directing. That's a big deal, right? Like getting those things out into the woods and.

Lindsay Hiken (35:31.106)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (35:45.039)
Mm hmm. yeah, that must be a huge challenge. Actually, I've never really thought about I've used them and been grateful they were there, you know. And but I've done some big races where they had banks of Horta potties, you know, just huge amounts of Horta like a good example is the hot chocolate race. It's not, you know, it's not it's just a fun run in San Francisco and

Loren (35:52.391)
Yeah.

Loren (36:06.548)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (36:11.528)
One year I had to to bathroom like everybody else before the race and it's just these massive long lines, just huge long lines. And I finally got into the porta potty and there was zero toilet paper left. And I was like, this really sucks. This sucks. And I mean, there was like a square, you know what I mean? Which I was like trying to deal with. And I couldn't, I was just like, well, is what it is. Start running right around like literally

Actually, yeah, like right when you first start running right by the start, there was this other bank of porta potties that have essentially not been used by anybody. It was like brand new, fresh porta potties. And I was like, why did I wait in line for 20 minutes? If I'd walked around the corner, I would have been the only one there. But yeah, that's a huge, huge thing. I didn't realize the 100 person rule that makes a lot of sense.

Loren (36:51.145)
Yeah, brand new, smelling good.

Loren (37:08.309)
It's just, it's our rule at our park. The park kind of arbitrarily came up with that because they have a restroom where we have the start finish for that race. they just kind of came up with that arbitrarily. it's, so we will actually try to like, we'll make a decision at some point if we want to grow the race past a hundred people, if it's worth renting porta potties.

Lindsay Hiken (37:31.625)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And how big is your race, the 50K and the 100K? Like how many people?

Loren (37:39.829)
400 runners combined between the 50k and the 100k. I think we have 275 in the 100k and then 125 in the 50k.

Lindsay Hiken (37:54.155)
Wow, that's amazing. It's really cool to hear, know, just here in the Bay Area, how many long distance runners there are. mean, you know, when people hear about ultra running, you think of like, there's probably five insane people that do that. And you're talking about 400 people come into your race and running long distance. That's pretty...

Loren (38:14.314)
Yeah, we sell out fast. Like, like we sell out. There's more races now, so we don't sell out as fast as we used to. like, that's, you're so right, Lindsay, like our race is a week or two away from me walk, which is a hundred K Western States qualifier, which is a week or two away from canyons, which is a hundred K Western States qualifier. And you know, all that stuff is right here in Northern California Bay area.

Lindsay Hiken (38:31.946)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (38:42.52)
That's cool. Does Western States still have a lottery or did they get rid of it? Not that, you know, I'm going to enter a lottery for this, but I just wondered. So do you have to have done anything to get into the lottery? Like, how do they know that you're not just some like, could I just enter the lottery and be like, yeah, I haven't been running because I broke my ankle and now I'm just going to be in Western States.

Loren (38:46.355)
Nope, they have a lottery.

Loren (39:06.451)
You run a qualifying race. Yeah, you run a qualifying race.

Loren (39:15.957)
And generally, to get in, have to accumulate a lot of tickets. So you've run multiple qualifying races over multiple years. So, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (39:26.03)
Okay, so they have. So you have to qualify and you qualify by tickets. And then they have a lottery, which means you have to run one of those races and you can enter the lottery. Is that right? Okay. Okay. And about how many tickets does it take?

Loren (39:41.055)
Yeah. Yep.

Lindsay Hiken (39:47.567)
to just get is it is it by speed? I mean, is it by pace? Like I know, you know, if I use Iron Man as an as the an example, because I know that a little bit better, you know, it's it's the certain number of spaces per qualifying race will get you to Kona.

Loren (40:03.798)
So it has nothing to do with speed. It's just so obviously there's some, well, I shouldn't say obviously, but there are automatic entries and like slots for professionals that finished top 10 previous years and stuff like that. But everything else is you double your tickets every time you're in the lottery. That gives you more and more tickets, which gives you better and better chances. And there might be 5,000 unique runners with

Lindsay Hiken (40:13.198)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (40:16.813)
Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (40:26.402)
Okay.

Loren (40:33.393)
60,000 tickets, I don't know, like, you know, with however many tickets. Yeah. Yeah. You got to keep qualifying. You got to keep qualifying. Um, but yeah, they roll over year to year.

Lindsay Hiken (40:35.438)
So that because they're rolling over year to year. Oh, OK. Yeah.

Wow, that's pretty amazing. And so you're a Quicksilver race. You can sign up without having done something else. Okay. Okay.

Loren (40:50.921)
Yeah. Yep. But you can use that as a qualifying race to enter the Western States lottery.

Lindsay Hiken (40:58.09)
Okay, okay. That's cool. And when, and we probably went over this when we talked last time, but just because we have listeners that didn't listen before. When did you start ultra distance running and kind of what were your first races? What were your little foray into that?

Loren (41:16.101)
man, I found out about Western States and I wanted to run Western States. So I immediately started like, I'm going to run a first 50K, then I'm going to run a Western States qualifier and yeah. And my trajectory was sharp. I got in the Western States my first try, which is unheard of, but yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (41:27.779)
wow.

Lindsay Hiken (41:32.799)
wow. That's that's really cool. I just think, you know, a race I want to do the race I've always had on my bucket list is the American River 50. Have you done that race? was it? OK, I don't want to do it to qualify. just I've heard it's pretty and I've heard that the first, I don't know, 17 miles or something are are fairly.

Loren (41:45.769)
Yeah, that was my first Western States qualifier.

Lindsay Hiken (42:01.421)
I don't know if I'd say easy, but easier. I've heard after that it gets really hairy and they have that like meat grinder part of it, which doesn't sound too exciting. But the idea of running kind of along a river and into the mountains is appealing to me because I want to look at something nice, you know, while I'm suffering. It's sort of.

Loren (42:04.628)
Yeah.

Loren (42:15.957)
Later.

Loren (42:20.744)
I volunteer at that race most years. That's a good one. That's a good one.

Lindsay Hiken (42:25.004)
All right, well, I'm going to, you know, hopefully work my way up to it. I got to work my way up to just running again, you know. So are you running now? I was going to ask, are you running now or what are you kind of doing now?

Loren (42:27.316)
you

Loren (42:32.758)
You and me both. You and me both.

Loren (42:38.749)
I am like not training as much. Actually, you know what, Lindsay, I have to put you on hold for one second. I'm sorry.

Lindsay Hiken (42:44.238)
Sure, no worries. All right, listeners, I think he's got to deal with the cats because they are just being little butt holes today. So what I'll talk about while Lauren's gone is just that I've been sharing with you guys that I haven't been running. I don't want to do triathlon anymore, or at least right now I'm kind of like just riding my bike and I'm feeling a little bit down and out about.

about running, but all of Mike's talk about doing the Marine Corps Marathon and just the talk we've had with ultra distance runners lately has really sort of sparked that fire in me again to get out on the trails. No worries.

Loren (43:26.812)
I'm sorry about that, Lindsay. you know, like the world is starting to wake up and... So 2024 Western States was a big spend for me. I had torn my meniscus early in the year. So I ran Western States with about 500 miles of training miles in 2024.

Lindsay Hiken (43:33.384)
yeah, absolutely.

Lindsay Hiken (43:45.421)
Oof.

Loren (43:54.453)
really helped me lower expectations. But it was a big spend. It was a big spend. I kind of, I don't want to say decided to take the year 2025 off racing, but I think that decision was made for me. So now, I'm just trying to...

Lindsay Hiken (44:10.744)
Ha

Loren (44:23.54)
Basically, like we just said, I started running with a focus on running Western states. Like I started running.

Lindsay Hiken (44:28.386)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (44:31.166)
with a goal of running 100 miles, like not a 5K. So I was always training for something. I think that really, really matters. I think that helps so much with intention and not being overwhelmed by choices. But.

Lindsay Hiken (44:33.39)
Yeah. Right, Like, go big.

Lindsay Hiken (44:48.174)
Mm.

Loren (45:00.176)
I'd been doing it for 10 years, 11 years or something like that. And I had my first serious injury. I overcame it to run Western States. But after that, just needed out of necessity to just chill for a bit. So now the challenge is how do you stay healthy and fit when you don't have the or else, right? When there is no or else.

Lindsay Hiken (45:28.77)
Right, right, right.

Loren (45:29.906)
Right? Like, there's no race that you're afraid of. you know, I could not wake up and not run today and it really wouldn't matter, you know? you know? And, you know, when I was on your show the first time, we talked a little bit about like, food, like food is such a major part of all of this, right? And the same thing, like, you know, like,

Lindsay Hiken (45:43.886)
All right, yeah.

Loren (45:59.891)
When you're training, you always know what your workouts are, you always know what your workouts are, you always know what your meals are, right? When it's going well. And I really thrive in that environment. Like just follow the pattern, follow the pattern. I really, really thrive in that. yeah, so now my like, what I'm training for is just not to let all that slip away, right? Like stay focused, stay focused when there's no focus.

Lindsay Hiken (46:08.183)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (46:13.878)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (46:24.386)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (46:29.29)
Yeah, that's definitely more challenging. It's challenging for me. I'm in that space right now where I'm not doing. was just saying when you stepped away that, you know, I haven't been running. I've been haven't been swimming. I've been writing. And earlier this year, I was focused on swimming. did like 50,000 yards in the month of February. It's a team challenge. And so was very focused on swimming. And that was great because I had that goal, you know, and I was like, just counting my yards to get to 50,000. And

And it was helpful because I was I'm getting in the pool today. I'm getting in the pool pretty much most days. You know, I'm getting in the pool this morning. After that, I didn't have anything really planned. And I was just kind of like, yeah, I feel waterlogged, not going to swim. And then I was doing a little bit of running and then had a back problem. And I'm like, I can't really run right now. So I'm just going to ride. And I've been enjoying riding. But I have I had a goal of going to a gravel cycling camp in July, which I did. It was a lot of fun.

still didn't quite have the fitness that I would have liked to have because it's like camp. wasn't it's not a race. You know what I mean? And there's a van. They'll pick you up. You can stop. You know, you can roll into an aid station and eat a bunch of garbage and just kind of hang out. And they'll even give you a bump like, you don't want to do this climb. We'll just bump you up to the next. You know, I mean, I didn't do those things, but but the impetus to train is a little bit lacking because it isn't a big scary.

Loren (47:36.169)
Yeah.

Loren (47:48.019)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (47:57.687)
you know, event or race. And so I'm kind of where you are in the sense of like, don't really have to do anything today if I don't want to do anything. And I think it's having a negative impact on my fitness for sure. And so so are you getting up and doing the training? Are you finding it challenging?

Loren (48:18.472)
Yeah, I, for the most part, like, there's been some cat challenge, know, my two older cats, my two oldest cats passed this year, both like, so, you know, like there's, there were times where you have to wake up and make sure they eat before you leave the house. And when you're not training for a race, like maybe you're just not going to make it.

Lindsay Hiken (48:34.334)
I'm so sorry.

Loren (48:47.077)
some of those days, there's been some of that, but for the most part, I get up and I show up. I don't go as far or as fast as I used to, but I think, again, I need the routine. I need the routine. So it's kind of like, if I'm not gonna give up, then.

Lindsay Hiken (49:01.326)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (49:08.17)
Mm hmm. Yeah.

Loren (49:16.795)
And I'm not. So then I gotta keep doing something. And I've got a group that runs five days a week. So that, you know how important community is in times like this. I had to find a power outlet, sorry. So yeah, I've got a really, really good group that keeps me up in the morning and stuff like that.

Lindsay Hiken (49:22.626)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (49:29.518)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (49:35.778)
Yeah. No worries.

Lindsay Hiken (49:46.85)
That's awesome. Do you have anything in mind at all, potentially race wise down the down the line?

Loren (49:54.516)
I want to keep qualifying for Western states. Well, because I want to run Western states as much as I can. Which may be never again. But I got to keep getting qualified. So this year, if I could get a 50k in before the end of the year, I got a bunch of friends going out to Mammoth, Mammoth Trail Fest.

Lindsay Hiken (49:59.086)
Mm.

Lindsay Hiken (50:04.334)
All right.

Lindsay Hiken (50:21.545)
Mmm.

Sounds cool.

Loren (50:25.235)
I still like, I still have hopes of doing that. then, and then kind of, I would take a look at the quad dipsey in November because they do a 10 year, they do a 10 year jacket and I've run eight times. So this year would be number nine. there was, so that would, that would kind of, that would motivate me. And then 2026, I want to, I want to run a Western States qualifier.

Lindsay Hiken (50:37.966)
yes.

Lindsay Hiken (50:53.91)
Okay, that sounds like a solid plan. The quad, Dipsy. I have a friend who did it, my friend Heidi. She's been on the show before and she was trying to get me to go do it with her and I ran just from, I ran over to Stinson and then had a ride back, you know, and I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that. Maybe the double I can see going back and forth. It would be great to do the quad, that race with those

Loren (51:14.973)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (51:24.0)
stairs is just, you know, unbelievable. Just even I took some friends up there hiking and they were like, when does when did these end? These stairs? When do these stairs end? So

Loren (51:32.307)
You know what makes that race so fun, Lindsay, is the all day back and forth, right? You and Heidi see each other at least three times, right? So, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (51:39.522)
Back and forth, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (51:44.175)
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it does sound like a really cool race. could and you I mean, you're so close to that 10 year jacket. You got to you got to do the other two. Yeah. Yeah. You can't get that close and not do it. So we're going to wind down soon. But just for was we've recently had a few ultra runners on the show, which is great. think Mike's really getting back into running and I'm I've got it, you know, in my sights to get back into running. What do you what's some advice for people who are like, OK, I want to

Loren (51:52.41)
I got to. I have to.

Lindsay Hiken (52:14.158)
run a race longer than a marathon. You know, I want to run a 50k say, what's some advice that you have for that kind of person who wants to start getting into it?

Loren (52:24.979)
Consistency and food. So what I mean by that is I really think don't... I mean, you can log a bunch of miles, great, right? If you wanna run 50 miles a week, that's your training goal and that fits with your life, great. I won't talk you off of that. However, if that's...

That's a challenge for you. If getting all those miles is a challenge, just be consistent. Just be consistent. Consistency is more important than, you know, stacking up this many miles versus this many miles versus this many miles. Just be out there. And then food. Once you pass the marathon distance, really once you pass a half a marathon distance, fueling on the go becomes, I mean,

Lindsay Hiken (52:55.63)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (53:02.316)
Lindsay Hiken (53:10.807)
Okay.

Loren (53:23.411)
you know, 30, 40 % of the experience you're gonna have in the day, you know? get used to, figure out what you can eat on the go and get used to eating on the go. Like, do it. And don't try to, you're not training to be able to run without eating. Like, I think we all try to do that, right? Like, if I get really fit, I won't have to eat and then I'll solve all these problems.

Lindsay Hiken (53:38.185)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (53:45.932)
Right.

Loren (53:52.335)
No, that's like, that's a fool's errand, right? Like it sends you down a bad path. the David Roach, some, you know, some people love him, some people hate him. I love him. but David Roach, he recently referred to like running as the calorie war. Like, yeah. And what he was basically saying is like, I know my body can crank out Watts. The calorie war is can I replace the energy as fast as I'm putting it out? Right.

Lindsay Hiken (53:55.106)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (54:20.13)
Right. Right.

Loren (54:21.86)
Now I know he's like super, super elite, but I can tell you that even at my level, that's a real thing. running, I can get to a point where the, I mean, absurd as it may sound, running for 20 or 30 hours is fine, as long as I can keep the fuel coming in, right? So.

Lindsay Hiken (54:27.82)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (54:41.134)
Right, right. I would argue that, you know, being a non elite, just a regular athlete, it would almost be more important. You're going to be out there longer. You know, I would see people do Iron Man. They're doing it in like nine hours or something. I mean, they're they're at dinner or lunch, you know, well, well before I am. And I'm out there 14 and a half, 15 hours.

if you're not feeling because you've already met, you know, all these meals are you've missed them all a normal, you know. And so I could see how I could see how running for 20, 30 hours. I mean, there's no way without without feeling correctly. OK, well, I think I'm really grateful that you came on and shared your experience with us again. Listeners, if you want.

Loren (55:13.468)
Yeah.

Loren (55:33.298)
I'm grateful you asked. I was kind of thinking like, well, I'm not in the greatest shape right now. And I'm like, well, you know what? Like, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (55:41.059)
That's not a that is not a qualifier to get on this show by any stretch of the imagination. Mike and I both had periods while we're doing the show where we're like, yeah, I'm not really doing shit right now. You know, I'm just sleeping in and doing whatever I feel like. One last question, just really quickly, because it's something that I've been doing and sharing on here is that I've started doing strength training to as I've aged. Is that something that you got you do?

Loren (55:43.186)
you

Loren (56:09.427)
Yes, a big believer in it. Like, and I'm just like, just my thing is I like to do lots of pushups and pull ups, you know, um, but, both of those things are like really good for your core. Um, uh, but I also think, feel like, uh, if you have like the time to be intentional about it and again, cause if you're a runner, you're going to get lower body stuff, right? So pushups and pull ups just kind of make you

Lindsay Hiken (56:10.347)
Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (56:19.288)
Okay.

Lindsay Hiken (56:26.766)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (56:36.802)
Mm-hmm.

Loren (56:38.982)
balanced, right? But if you have time to be intentional about it, when I was when I was really ramping up for the 2021 states, squats and lunges, man, I feel like it really helped. I feel like it really helped. And I kind of feel like it's a luxury, right? Because like, my legs are already doing so much. I'm running this many miles a week, right? So I kind of felt like it was a luxury. But there was some value there. I really felt like there was some value.

Lindsay Hiken (56:40.237)
Right, right.

Lindsay Hiken (56:54.798)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (56:58.658)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (57:04.334)
Cool, cool. Well, that's good to know because I'm doing a strength training class twice a week. my main motivation for doing that is that after my ankle surgery, my body's been very out of balance because I had this long period of time where I needed surgery.

the doctors were fighting me on that. They were like, you can ride your bike 20 miles. That seems like, and I'm like, that's not, that's not what, you know, don't compare me to other patients that don't are sedentary, you know, took me a while. So then my body's way out of balance. So every time I start running, running more than any other thing, it's

Loren (57:29.394)
YAH!

Lindsay Hiken (57:42.69)
very apparent, like I start having pains in other parts of my body because I'm out of balance. the strength training is the thing that I'm trying to use to, to rebalance myself so I can start running. So it's good to hear that you're, you know, you're proponent of that.

Loren (57:55.186)
I'm a big time believer. Also super frustrating to hear about your experience with healthcare. yeah, like, you know, the same thing when I had my meniscus, like, I say it's a torn meniscus, they never would give me an MRI because it's like, well, you're still training, right? It's like, well, yeah, but I can't run, like, you know, like.

Lindsay Hiken (58:02.914)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (58:17.75)
Right.

Loren (58:19.196)
They're like, but you're fine. You're so much better than all these other people. Why spend money on an MRI for you? Like, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (58:26.51)
No, it's really, it's really crazy. After I had my surgery, the doctor came out like right then and talked to me about it he said, oh, it went really well. You had a lot of scar tissue in there and that must have been really painful. I'm like, huh, I've been saying that for 15 months. only took you, yes, it must have been, you know, so it was frustrating, but it's better now and I want to, there's no reason why I can't get back to running. So you've definitely inspired me today and

Loren (58:45.211)
Yes.

Lindsay Hiken (58:56.396)
Listeners, if you want to hear the first interview with Lauren, you can go to our YouTube channel because all of our past episodes are on there and you can scroll way back and you'll see the one with Lauren and you can listen to it there because I think it's just back in those days we just did audio, not video. Now you can go to YouTube and you can see Lauren and myself while we're talking because it's a full video. Thanks so much for coming on and best of luck.

Loren (59:24.338)
Lindsay, thanks so much for reaching out. Sorry about a couple of interruptions.

Lindsay Hiken (59:29.103)
Oh, no worries. We're, you know, we're loosey goosey around here. This is this podcast is for fun and for just a creative outlet. And so we're not if someone has to get up and deal with their cat, we're good because we Mike and I have both gotten up and dealt with our dogs. So it's not a big deal. All righty, listeners. Yeah, check out our YouTube. That's your assignment for this week. And we will see you next week. Thanks so much. Bye.

Loren (59:40.658)
You