Embracing the Ultra: A Journey with Rich Dreyling

Description: Join Mike Ergo as he sits down with fellow Marine Corps veteran and ultra runner, Rich Dreyling. They dive into the world of endurance racing, discussing the mental and physical challenges of ultra marathons, the importance of training, and the role of exercise in mental health. Rich shares his experiences from the Afton 50K and offers insights into balancing family life with the demands of training.

Key Topics:

Transitioning from half marathons to ultra races The significance of mental resilience in endurance sports Gear essentials for trail running The impact of physical activity on mental health Navigating life changes and setting big goals

Guest: Rich Dreyling - Marine Corps veteran, ultra runner, and linguistic scholar

Host: Mike Ergo

Hashtags: #EnduranceRunning #MentalHealth #UltraMarathon #VeteranStories

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Transcript

Mike Ergo (00:01.42)
Hey everybody. Welcome back to ginger and chocolate. This is Mike. I'm flying solo today in a way cause Lindsey's out, but I have an awesome guest on here. I guess I know very well fellow Marine Corps brother, ultra runner, triathlete, linguistic scholar and a good all around dude. Rich Dreyling. What's up, rich.

Richard (00:23.883)
Hey, Mike, how's it going, man? Good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Mike Ergo (00:25.73)
Good dude. Yeah, man. Yeah, dude. Good to have you on here. I mean, this is the first time you've been on this show, but for listeners, we've been on a previous show together that we co-hosted and spent a lot of time just chopping it up and, you know, talking to lot of veterans, talking to lot of endurance athletes and just going over stuff. So man, it's good to be back on the air with you, dude.

Richard (00:51.273)
Yeah dude, it's awesome. It's good to be back in the United States and Well, mostly good to be back in the United States, you know, but yeah good to be back around and It's been a heck of a training year for sure

Mike Ergo (00:58.659)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (01:04.726)
Yeah, man. So I mean, as far as races and stuff, I mean, you just finished an ultra. Was it a 50 K?

Richard (01:12.627)
Yeah, 50 K trail. And I was pretty slow, I gotta add, but it was. I'm still proud of the achievement, you know.

Mike Ergo (01:22.019)
yeah, what was the name of it? was out in Minnesota, right?

Richard (01:24.811)
Yeah, it's called the Afton 50K. I mean, the hills weren't as crazy as something like, you know, what was it, Leadville? Like one of those that's up in the mountains, right? But it's like done in a state park that's right next to probably at least for the metro area, one of the nicest ski areas.

Mike Ergo (01:36.46)
Yeah.

Richard (01:54.761)
You know, so like it's these small patches of hills. It's not like not even Mount Diablo, you know, but it is like it would get you. It was weird how it would get you because there's like it's a pretty compact. State Park and if you look at the map of the state park, you notice that you kind of start where all the cars are and then you go out and there's kind of these little.

Mike Ergo (01:58.562)
huh.

Yeah.

Richard (02:23.423)
branches that you go and you touch basically every corner of that state park and They have you hit all of the kind of the hilly routes, you know and you do two labs

Mike Ergo (02:35.15)
I mean, any elevation at distance is a pain in the ass.

Richard (02:39.433)
Yeah, I mean, dude, for me, this was an overreach. I will tell you that like we haven't we talked, I think when I finished. But like through the month of July, after finishing that race, every time I ran, it was just brutal. It was like my legs were tired inside of five minutes or it felt that way. I was able to keep running, you know. But yeah, it was.

It was like, so the longest race I'd done up until that was last year, I did a half Ironman in August. And then this year I started training in kind of January timeframe and worked my way to do like a, it was called fans ultra race, but that was road. It was like six hour. I did the six hour thing.

Mike Ergo (03:37.388)
lot of time.

Richard (03:39.561)
Yeah, well, I'm pretty slow, man. Like I was fighting some, some tendon issues in my feet. So like, couldn't really do speed work, but I could do long runs, you know? And so, yeah, did that one and that was a six hour race, but I did like 29 miles. It's pretty humbling to have to do two and a half hours more to finish a 50 K, you know?

Mike Ergo (04:02.712)
Well, mean, shoot, dude, I mean, you're surpassing me in, in run distance. Cause I mean, I've, I've done 26.2, but beyond that is just the great unknown. So you went from half iron man to racing ultras. How'd you make that jump?

Richard (04:06.526)
with.

Richard (04:21.333)
Well, well since you know, we're not young guys anymore. mean, look in, the, in the whole, like, in the spectrum of, of a life, we're still pretty young, you know, we're still able to like get after it, but the way that we heal is a little bit different. So I was, when I was looking at training plans this year, I went for, I like the 80 20 endurance stuff.

Mike Ergo (04:28.448)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (04:36.664)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (04:50.318)
Mm-hmm.

Richard (04:50.891)
Um, and I like training peaks and having it automatically sent to me, but they have master's plans for people who are a little bit older, uh, where you don't have to do the threshold run every like couple of weeks, you know, uh, cause I had done their 80 20, uh, you know, level zero 70.3, like heart rate based. I do, I still do heart rate based cause I not advanced enough to, to do like.

Mike Ergo (05:04.76)
That's good.

Mike Ergo (05:13.666)
huh.

Richard (05:20.735)
the pace based or the power based, you

Mike Ergo (05:24.647)
I've done both, but I gotta say heart rate bass. I prefer that. Yeah. yeah.

Richard (05:28.617)
You prefer it? OK, yeah, Matt Fitzgerald had some like in one of his books was complaining or not complaining, but just saying how you know the pace based training can help you. Do better when it comes to like race pacing to get closer to your maximal potential level. You know. And so like for me, I wanted to have these race goals and I also needed to, know.

Mike Ergo (05:46.95)
huh.

Richard (05:57.727)
move a family internationally and then get landed and all this stuff. Yeah. So I, so for me, it was a combination of like, what can I do and how can I make it fit in my life? think that that's for most like recreational athletes. That's kind of the equation. So for me, I tried my best to, you know, fit the runs in regardless. And that required moving it around. You know what I mean? Moving some things around.

Mike Ergo (06:01.475)
Yeah.

Richard (06:28.491)
when we had kids activities, that kind of thing. But so it was the 80 20. One and then I wanted to have something like a test run. I didn't want to go straight to the 50 K to like I wanted to see because like the six hour. I ended up getting like 29 miles, but in order to like get the check in the box there or to like have done well for the six hour race.

Mike Ergo (06:31.736)
yeah.

Richard (06:57.289)
you know, get your hat or whatever. You needed to do like a marathon. And I was like, well, I know I can do a marathon in. In that amount of time, but for me, I was just kind of checking duration. Like that's why for me, like, I don't know. I always had triathlon with it, but I've never done a full Ironman. But it's about like duration. I guarantee you, could do, especially if it was a road race, you would knock out a 50 K.

in a heartbeat like it wouldn't be or not in a heartbeat but in a little bit more than your marathon time you know it's like you just you keep the intensity probably a little bit different if it's a road race you can have it maybe a little closer to that marathon but you know you're you're adding five miles and it just kind of slows the whole thing down a little bit but you're still in that you know cardiovascular space you're not like trying to amp it up now

Mike Ergo (07:32.727)
Interesting.

Richard (07:56.843)
the elevation that changed it up a little bit and it was like the biggest thing for me was I wanted to finish like I knew I wasn't going to set land speed records the guy who the guy who won um did it in 3 45 and he was a kid I thought so the way it was set up you had two loops right and you had to get around the first loop in under four hours and it's 25k

Mike Ergo (08:16.718)
Wow.

Richard (08:27.293)
And I thought I could do that like no problem because I had run a 25k trail race last year. It was the last year. No, because that was we left before it went last year. like it was 20, 20. Three. I did a 25k trail race and I was well under the three hour or under the four hours, but there's a lot less elevation on that one and.

This time you have to get around two loops, so you have to get through it with enough juice to get to the, to finish the second, you know? And now if you're like my, one of my buddies who used to do trail, like, you know, 50 milers and stuff, like if you just have a ton of volume, like if you're running, you know, 50 to a hundred miles a week, that's not going to be a problem at all. And you'll probably have

Mike Ergo (09:03.628)
Yeah.

Richard (09:24.393)
to loops in something like that that are pretty close to each other in time, but for me it was brutal.

Mike Ergo (09:30.926)
was going to ask you, I bet I was going to ask you too about road versus trail. I road, it's generally it's flatter. It's, I mean, it's more compact, but do you, I've heard, and I agree with this, that you get mentally stimulated a little bit more in the trail because you got a lot of changing stuff and better scenery generally.

Richard (09:57.279)
You know, I, I just like the trails. Yeah. I like the trail mentally stimulated is a nice way to put it. another way to put it is you don't have to run with like, you know, you're running Marine Corps marathon this year, right? I mean, it's going to be all time packed, right? Probably 50,000 people or something like that. And like, I, don't want to do that. I registered for a different one, man, but I just like the road braces even

Mike Ergo (10:01.133)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (10:09.836)
Yeah.

Pat, Pat!

Yeah.

Richard (10:25.119)
the tall in half marathon was like a little much for me. I don't like the dodging the people. So, you know, for that, for the Afton, you probably had to dodge for the first like.

Mike Ergo (10:31.656)
yeah.

Mike Ergo (10:39.149)
Hmm.

Richard (10:39.305)
I don't know, like half hour, hour. And then it was, I was just kind of out on my own, which felt like a nature hike where I had to just keep moving fast.

Mike Ergo (10:47.756)
Yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah, I've done a handful of trail races and I agree with you. think I prefer that.

Richard (10:50.133)
Yeah.

Richard (10:59.127)
I think it speaks, I don't know if it's like because of the time you spent in the woods, like either hunting or everyone has their own kind of story with that. You know, for me, I was like a Boy Scout and then I always enjoyed those parts of, you know, the training in the Marine Corps, whether it was land nav or going out with like a radio recon team and just.

doing training and stuff. it's like six guys or four guys in my rip where it's not like, you know, doing like, didn't necessarily like humps, but they, they weren't bad. but like,

Mike Ergo (11:37.926)
Yeah, humps for all you civilian people who are not affiliated with the Marine Corps. Just fancy ways, yeah, putting a pack on and hiking at a miserable pace.

Richard (11:42.315)
Force marches

Richard (11:48.489)
Yes. And you know, it's funny is, when I did that, this, the fans race, there was a lady ahead of me and I couldn't tell if she was doing like the pure walking or the running race, right? Cause you could do six hours walking, six hours running, but she was just kind of like moving and she had not this, like the drone structure thing. She kind of had this more.

different gate but she was doing this like race walk most of the time and then she would just jog the downs and she ended up being the winner of the the women's six-hour race and she hit the 50k mark and I googled her name because I had talked to her a little bit and I took note of her name when they handed out the medals because this is a pretty small event and it ended up that she's like a I don't know five time like

Mike Ergo (12:19.566)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (12:32.488)
wow.

Richard (12:47.893)
you know, 50k winner of like some big 50 K's in the area. And so she was a really experienced and we were like, just talking and she's like, yeah, it's all about, you know, stability and just kind of like keeping your pace roughly the same. Don't go out too hard. Yeah. And then, you know, just walk the ups and walk the ups from the beginning. Don't like start jogging and then start walking them when you get tired later down, you know,

Mike Ergo (12:49.976)
Ha

Mike Ergo (13:03.766)
Interesting. Yeah.

Richard (13:17.833)
the road of the race. Because then you've already wasted a bunch of your energy.

Mike Ergo (13:22.54)
Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that referred to as, you know, burning a match and you only got so many matches in your match book for a race. And so the more, more times you really dig in and, and, and go anaerobic, then yeah, you're burning that and you can be smoked. That happened to me. God, I can think of a trail half marathon I did a Mount Diablo was I just like finished a half iron man a few weeks before. So confidence level was high. Arrogance level was

Richard (13:29.343)
Exactly.

Richard (13:38.122)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (13:52.448)
high. So I went out and didn't bring any water, any food, you know, any, any, yeah, exactly. And I think, I was banking on an aid station being at the top, but since the route had changed from the year before the aid station was on the old map and not where we were. So that was at the turnaround point of the farthest, elevate or the highest elevation. And so kind of stumbled back down the hill and,

Richard (14:05.205)
Mm-hmm.

Richard (14:09.65)
Mike Ergo (14:21.73)
Bonked out dude. I had this like sit at an aid station less than a mile away from the finish, maybe half mile away watching people finish and like, well, I'm just sucking down electrolytes. It's embarrassing, man.

Richard (14:36.743)
It feels like me coming off the bike and my half Ironman, because I left behind like the extra bottle I had. I don't know why I decided like, I think I was I didn't want to try a new thing or something like that. But I had planned to put like two bottles because I was using like a clip on setup, you know, on a road bike. And so it wasn't really

Mike Ergo (14:41.741)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (14:53.32)
huh.

Mike Ergo (15:02.164)
huh.

Richard (15:05.567)
designed with all of the bottles in mind. cause I threw this extra bottle or I was going to throw an extra bottle in there. And then I was like, screw it. And I didn't, I think I pulled the thing off or something. I don't know. I just remember I did not drink enough on a bite. And then I came off and it was like the hottest day that that country has seen. Like the whole, like previous year, it was insane.

Mike Ergo (15:30.21)
Ha

Richard (15:35.275)
But yeah, man, it's weird how race management is important. It's like a big thing.

Mike Ergo (15:43.566)
Oh yeah, you can get away with poor race management, sprinting the Olympic, triathlons even. But then once you start getting these longer distance races that take multiple hours, the nutrition, the hydration, the pacing, it's all critical.

Richard (16:00.689)
Yeah, you know, I'll tell you another thing. So like the gear, like if you're going to do a trail 50, I would recommend. At least have all the gear. Alright, so this is like my I guess weird little story is I decided. Like. You know, specificity, it's always good to train. If you can, even on the course, right?

Mike Ergo (16:13.197)
Yeah.

Richard (16:28.267)
Oh, but in conditions like the course. So I had run most of my stuff on, uh, on road, like just trying to get it in. I would leave my house and start my runs. And then that was it. So it was road most of the time, but then, you know, I was reading, I think it's relentless forward progress that book. And it was like, you need to train what you're on the race, whatever. So, or on the track if possible. So I.

started doing my long runs over at the state park. was like, you know, it added an hour to whatever I was doing, but I said, all right, let's do it. And that kind of saved my butt, because I got to thinking like, okay, maybe I should use my trail shoes, because, or not my trail shoes, my road shoes, because the trail is not that bad. And I went out and did a long run on there with the road shoes. Bad idea.

Mike Ergo (17:22.262)
Yeah.

Richard (17:22.985)
Right. Bad idea. So I got to check my, my trail shoes. I, instead of using my, I have a Camelback that looks kind of like the ones that we were issued when we were in, that I had bought when I was over there. Cause I call it my, my safety blanket. I always had one of those when I did longer runs and stuff, even back to the Marine Corps days. So I have, I always carry like, even if it's a short run, I usually will have something like a Camelback on me. You know, like I never this like the strap on with

Mike Ergo (17:48.48)
Okay. Yeah.

Richard (17:52.565)
there this strap with this, like the cup that never really appealed to me handheld, like cup. Yeah. With the strap. I never really liked those. So I, then I went and I got the, the big, the vest and it's way overkill for like 80 % of my runs. But when I would do my long runs at the state park and it ended up being a hot day, it was like, I filled that thing up.

Mike Ergo (17:57.582)
One of those hand-held things.

Richard (18:21.451)
twice just for one loop. You know, and it has the two, like the bottles up front, the collapsible bottles, and then I bought a two liter bottle, it was meant to fit a two liter. So I got a two liter bladder in the back. And then I had done, like we did a vacation and I was not really training through vacation. It was bad timing. This was between the two and that's where I could have really done planning better.

is between the May 31st race and the July 5th race, I trained, but I didn't train on like a schedule. And so there was a bit of a gap time in June, but I knew like, you know, your long runs are really important. So get that long run in. And so the way the training plan said it or had it set was a five hour long run.

Mike Ergo (19:00.152)
Okay.

Mike Ergo (19:19.714)
Oof, yeah.

Richard (19:20.051)
And I went and did that on the State Park Trail, like the exact course. I got a map and then I navigated my way through it, which took a little bit more time, but hey, whatever. I had it on my phone. I was able to just kind of like look and compare. I, I nailed it. I never made any like really big errors or whatever, but I did that on the hottest day of the year.

Mike Ergo (19:29.356)
Okay.

Mike Ergo (19:46.092)
Yeah.

Richard (19:47.307)
And so it was about like 92, 93 out there. And it's, it's not 92, 93, like in the East Bay. It's like 92 in like Florida. it's what it felt like you're like swimming. Yeah. And, and it had not really been that hot up until that point. So it was brutal. And I was like, you know what? Like these polls, people say that you need them at longer races. Like, and I said, I'm just going to buy them.

Mike Ergo (19:58.574)
Yeah, you get the humidity, Oof!

Mike Ergo (20:13.955)
Yeah.

Richard (20:17.577)
Like I need maybe that one or 2 % off my legs, whatever it is, you know, but I think that saved my butt because the day of the race, instead of a really hot day, it poured. Like poured. Yes, and there were a bunch of people who I passed who were just slipping and sliding one lady tried to run it in road shoes. And, and.

Mike Ergo (20:22.673)
huh.

Mike Ergo (20:29.71)
so you need it for like traction.

Mike Ergo (20:43.31)
Richard (20:46.673)
She did it because her physical therapist told her that she had to run in super petted road shoes because she had a stress fracture. So she must have been hardened by the end of the day.

Mike Ergo (20:58.894)
Jeez, yeah.

Richard (21:00.275)
So, you know, it all worked out. I think I could have managed it better because I had like a half hour increase in the time of my second loop. But, well, I mean, no, I mean, I didn't. Descend, yeah, like an increase, but, you know, I was glad to just finish it and then. Yeah, now I'm tackling a different challenge, which is a marathon. I'm.

Mike Ergo (21:12.831)
huh, nice.

Mike Ergo (21:17.824)
I see what saying. Yeah.

Richard (21:29.789)
Not doing the Marine Corps one though.

Mike Ergo (21:31.66)
What are you aiming for?

Richard (21:33.461)
Fort Worth.

Mike Ergo (21:35.607)
Down in Texas?

Richard (21:36.619)
Yeah, but it's in November, so it should be hopefully not 92 degrees, you know.

Mike Ergo (21:38.989)
Okay.

No, hell no, Well, you know, so you talk about gear for a second and what's where so what are the essential gear so so far you mentioned the vest hydration vest, trail shoes.

Richard (21:53.001)
Yeah, well the vest. So even on this one, so like the the ones that the one that I did that was on the road, it was just loops around a lake. So that one was really easy to I could have done that really without a whole lot of gels and stuff. I could just grabbed food food at the. It was really stocked well. There was never more than a mile between aid stations. The one that I did on the trail.

Mike Ergo (22:02.188)
Yeah.

Richard (22:22.013)
You just never sure what they're gonna have. So like some YouTube video was like, I brought too much stuff. And I was like, well, no, he didn't like I, I brought enough that I could have like a gel every half hour. And lots of electrolytes like I had these little, not the tabs that go into the water and then kind of dissolve. But I had these like little tablets or whatever.

Mike Ergo (22:24.609)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (22:32.886)
Heh.

Mike Ergo (22:38.155)
huh.

Mike Ergo (22:45.789)
huh.

Richard (22:50.599)
And I would eat like two of them an hour. Now at the end of it, I was, think I gained weight over the time, but I was not dehydrated, you know? So like to me, I was not really worried about over-salt in myself. I was worried about like falling over and yeah.

Mike Ergo (22:57.869)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (23:05.302)
Yeah, exactly. No, for that, for that amount of time in those conditions. Well, with,

Richard (23:11.675)
and then always body glide and everywhere means everywhere.

Mike Ergo (23:16.522)
Everywhere means everywhere. I get it, man.

Richard (23:18.995)
Yeah, I made that mistake. It was a painful one.

Mike Ergo (23:21.742)
Yeah, bodyglides a must dude. I get it. I've used that just probably every single race I've done and since I started and learned the hard way like you. So I was gonna ask you about like gels and stuff. with gels, I end up getting kind of like a flavor fatigue unless I change it up. What kind of gels were you using and how often were you changing flavors?

Richard (23:42.848)
Mm-hmm.

Richard (23:49.477)
you know, so I don't have, I know like some of the triathletes, especially like the pros who are doing iron mans have like, know exactly the fueling that they need, you know, and there was like this, I knew the guy who was second place, like his, he brought his kid to a dance open house and I brought my kids there and we just started talking and, know, he used that this Afton.

Mike Ergo (24:03.138)
Yeah.

Richard (24:19.211)
as like a tune up race to go after like, eventually he's doing like 100 miler here soon. The guy's fast. He's also like he's a couple inches taller than me and I would bet I would put money on him being like 50 pounds less than me. The guys but he's fast, right? Like not like an ounce of fat on him. And that guy was like, well, I do 40 every 45 minutes I do a gel. Like for me, I just

Mike Ergo (24:35.213)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (24:40.802)
Yeah.

Richard (24:47.883)
There's a bit of like, okay, every time I remember, you know, like usually at least for me, like maybe a half hour apart. And I had just a couple different, I went to like, there's a Walmart here. It has more than the target. And I just grabbed like a bunch of stuff. I knew that there's, so there's ones that have like fructose and there's ones that have just regular kind of carbs.

Mike Ergo (24:55.341)
Yeah.

Richard (25:16.575)
The fruit toast is supposed to digest in your, in your like kidneys or liver or whatever. So it digests differently than the stuff that's the regular, like multidextrin and stuff when they're adding the carbs. So what I tried to do was eat like good food when it's available, rely on the gels when I have to. And I saved the stuff with caffeine toward like later in the race.

Mike Ergo (25:16.789)
huh.

Mike Ergo (25:41.468)
huh.

Richard (25:46.443)
There was the ones with the the fructose or whatever. There's one that like hit I knew that From just using it that I would have like an uplift. So when I was really feeling crappy it was less of a gel and more like this uh, I Don't know. It was like drinking a shot of something You know It was like liquidy, but that one I knew it would would like pick me up. It was really nasty

Mike Ergo (25:46.83)
smart.

Mike Ergo (25:55.597)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (26:05.134)
Yeah, okay.

Richard (26:13.897)
So like those ended up getting like saved toward the end of the race when I just like needed to have them, you know? yeah, man. And I just, like, I'm not as scientific about it. I know I'm a heavy sweater. Like I could tell that by looking at my hat after, you know, running. Yes. Like, I mean, yes, not just salt rings. Like the whole hat was like white. I, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I looks like it.

Mike Ergo (26:13.986)
Hahaha.

Mike Ergo (26:20.141)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (26:30.968)
Yeah, get the salt rings.

Mike Ergo (26:37.773)
All salted. Looked like a seagull shit on it.

Richard (26:42.559)
birds were just flying around my head.

But that was, that's probably poor diet. know what I mean? But.

Mike Ergo (26:46.478)
Ugh.

Mike Ergo (26:50.456)
Well, some of us are just heavy sweaters, man. That's just the way it goes. It's, you know, they do sweat tests for that reason. The, I was, I was thinking, man, like I wish I don't wish I just lacked the self discipline to be able to decrease my caffeine intake, you know, leading up to a race. So then I can really get the benefits of caffeine, like mid race, but I still get the benefits. It's just, know athletes, you know, are really serious about it. We'll

Richard (26:57.312)
Yeah.

Richard (27:07.018)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (27:19.374)
cut down or eliminate caffeine like up to two weeks before a race.

Richard (27:22.143)
so it really like gives them the punch. Yeah, I didn't do anything like that. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (27:25.656)
gives them that zing. can't I can't do that man or I won't do that.

Richard (27:30.731)
You know what they did have is this like, it's like a Java, like a little thing you chew and it's a hundred milligrams per and there's only two of them in a, I'm sure otherwise you'd be in caffeine overdose territory. So there's like these two little, um, I don't know. They're almost like jellies or something. They're kind of hard to chew. Um, and I use those like after that first loop. So like I knew.

Mike Ergo (27:36.952)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (27:51.617)
huh.

Mike Ergo (27:59.704)
Yeah.

Richard (28:00.863)
like the primary benefit of caffeine is it's supposed to reduce fatigue or at least reduces your perception of it. So I was like, so I was like, I'm going to hit this like later. Now I did have like something like this at the beginning, you know, like a Celsius or something just to like pop myself up because I really don't like waking up early. Yeah. Even all these years, I still hate waking up early, man. Yeah, it endures. Yeah. I'm not David Goggins like, all right.

Mike Ergo (28:07.087)
of it yeah.

Mike Ergo (28:14.637)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (28:23.214)
It endures, it doesn't it?

Richard (28:29.163)
It's four in the morning. No, that's sorry. Jocko. It's four in the morning. Let's get after it whatever. Like that's not me. And it's just his sweat pile. Yeah. Or like Goggins, like I get up at five and I run because it's the first thing it's the thing I hate most in the world. It's like good to know you still hate it, David. Thank you.

Mike Ergo (28:33.806)
Posting pictures of like his sweat like Prince of the gym. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (28:49.654)
I saw one of his posts actually yesterday, David Goggins, and it was like, a lot of people asked me what my diet is. It's like a lot of protein and a lot of shut the fuck up and go do your workout.

Mike Ergo (29:03.598)
I'm glad there's people like him or there's a guy like him who is him because, oh man, it's a, what a pile of motivation that man is.

Richard (29:12.745)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've listened to both or I have listened to both of his books while running, so I can't. Yeah. Can't hate on that.

Mike Ergo (29:14.606)
Dude.

Mike Ergo (29:19.116)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't hit on that at all, man. I mean, so many good memes and parodies of what he does, but it's because he's so successful at it, man. I just still love the story about him going out for his first, I think a hundred miler. and the day before, yeah, yeah. He was about to leave work and some, some other seal called him a pussy for not doing leg day before. So he did leg day hard.

Richard (29:36.105)
Yeah, after leg day or something like thrashing.

Richard (29:47.465)
And then it was a 24 hour race, right? With the, yeah. You know what's crazy, man? So that this, the fans ultra race, this is what they call it. It's like meant to raise money for kids who can't afford to go to school, like college and stuff. So yeah, it was a really cool race in the community. There was, was phenomenal. That was like the one that was the loop around the lake and

Mike Ergo (29:50.379)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Ergo (30:00.256)
huh.

Mike Ergo (30:07.224)
cool.

Richard (30:16.851)
And like I did pretty well for the six hour, but there were people who were faster than me for my six hours and they were there for like the 12th, you or for the 24. And there were a lot of people who were, you know.

walking and got pretty close to 100 miles. And I'm talking like there was like a lady who was well into her silver years who was like I had talked to her she's like, yeah, last year I did the 100 mile race and I forgot my or she's like I did this I was doing the 24 and I forgot my headlamp. So I just kind of quit and then volunteered for the rest of the time. And so they've built this community up, you know, this is really cool. But like, it gave it

Mike Ergo (30:36.664)
Wow.

Richard (31:02.399)
very different vibe than it was more like it's something I would have expected if you had like an ultra race that was like with all the people who had populated Big Sur after like the sixties, you know, it's like very kind of chill. Yeah. Yeah. It was cool, man.

Mike Ergo (31:17.912)
That is the trail community, isn't it? Yeah, it's that that's that's I think what I love besides the scenery and being outdoors and you know, in the woods or the hills. What I love about the trail races is that you have that kind of easy going friendly atmosphere, whereas like a road race, you know, you got you got the the type A is checking their watches, you know, double lacing like just like in their own head, right? No one else like

Richard (31:45.515)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (31:47.032)
There's your pact, but at the same time, everybody's just like, so, by themself, there's no, there's no community like, what's up, man? No, that that's, that's the trail.

Richard (31:56.437)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I felt like people talked more before, like at the half Ironman, then like even a half marathon, you know, like there just wasn't as much of, you're right. There was not as much of a community. It's probably just when there's that massive bodies. Like, it's like, when you're in New York city, you don't run around talking to everybody. You know, when you're in Minnesota, you say hello.

Mike Ergo (32:04.029)
huh.

Mike Ergo (32:08.12)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (32:19.598)
You say hello to somebody you don't know someone's like we're gonna fucking fight or what what the fuck do you want?

Richard (32:24.937)
Yeah, dude, what? Why are you talking to me? You know? Did I abduct your child to get the hell away from?

Mike Ergo (32:29.966)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Oh, Yeah. So I want to transition this just a little bit towards towards the end of our talk today and, and, and talk about, you know, like veteran mental health and, and what I mean for you, what, racing and training means. Cause I know for me, if I'm not racing or I'm not training really, cause the lifestyle is what it's about for me. I'm just not feeling right.

Richard (32:34.165)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mike Ergo (32:59.406)
I'm not feeling good unless I'm moving, doing some kind of endurance activity. You know, I found myself feeling depressed, I found myself feeling anxious, just kind of pacing. And it's just a lot of pent up energy that I just need to expend.

Richard (33:16.051)
Yeah, I mean, that is kind of at the root of it. Exactly what you were, you know, kind of laying out there. think. When you have this kind of type of physical activity that we're talking about, especially like endurance racing. It's not even necessarily racing, it's the training, right? But it does a couple of things like it.

Mike Ergo (33:39.021)
Yeah.

Richard (33:44.555)
My understanding of it is it raises your baseline level of dopamine so your lows don't go as low. And because like supposedly, I guess this is from Huberman from like a couple of years ago. So take it with a grain of salt, but it's not so much that we get these dopamine hits. It's like when you feel bad, it's this the difference between the high of dopamine and the low of dopamine. So if you raise the baseline level, it kind of keeps you a little bit more steady is my understanding of it. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (34:12.27)
more steady. Okay, that makes a lot of sense.

Richard (34:14.813)
And then you and supposedly exercise gives you more serotonin. Now I'm not a neuroscientist. I just play one on TV. No, I'm just kidding. don't. But for me, like so the reason for this goal for the like the crazy overreach of a 50 K going from a half marathon was number. OK, so there's a couple of things like I knew I wasn't going to be setting a land speed record because I'm fairly slow. Like I'm a big guy.

Mike Ergo (34:22.968)
Hahaha

Mike Ergo (34:34.883)
Yeah.

Richard (34:45.271)
I mean, I'm not a giant by any means, but like, you know, I'm pretty short and I weigh a decent amount. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (34:51.756)
Yeah, you don't have the bird body that a lot of endurance athletes have that you neither you or I have.

Richard (34:58.377)
Right. And so I, but I knew like that eventually I wanted to get to like the trail ultras because that's just, it's a nice happy space, you know, and there's like an aspect that's mentally difficult about those races that like climbing those Hills. And it's like, dude, just one foot in front of the other. And that reminded me of kind of like pushing through at certain points, probably in the Marine Corps or like

Mike Ergo (35:10.987)
Mm-hmm.

Richard (35:26.633)
you know, wrestling in early life or just athletics, you know, where you have to push through mentally. And I don't think we get that enough in our like day to day, but at the same time this year.

I wanted to do it during my 40th year to be able to hit the half Ironman and then at a marathon or an ultra. And I did technically do an ultra because anything over is, yeah. But I only got like 29 miles, which was my better, it wasn't my best goal, my outcome.

Mike Ergo (35:49.689)
huh.

Mike Ergo (35:56.43)
26.2.

Mike Ergo (36:06.678)
Yeah, there's some people listening here who've done like a couple of five K's maybe, or working up to a five K where the idea of 29 miles is fucking insane.

Richard (36:15.711)
Well, I mean, OK, so that for people out there, like it's just a matter of training. Like you you want to like increase your mileage by no more than 10 % per week and then dial it back every four weeks. And I think a training plan is the best way to kind of help that you want to do most of your stuff in like zone two if you can. If you're targeting the longer races and if you're trying to build distance, hey, that's but. You know, as far as the mental health aspect goes, I also

Mike Ergo (36:22.702)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (36:37.794)
Yeah.

Richard (36:45.451)
to have to remove a family. And I knew that transitioning like back here was not necessarily going to be easy in like the political environment and in the labor market.

Mike Ergo (36:56.45)
Yeah. And it's like a, it's a new, new country and a new culture, probably for your wife, right?

Richard (37:04.201)
Yeah, for my wife knew. and you know, we, it's not like where we were living was like super culture or whatever, but you could get there. Like you could go do, you can do it here too. It's just most of that stuff's in the West Metro, but like for us, you know, a place where they spoke a different language other than it being our normal where we were. But like, I mean,

we want to take a vacation. We went to Berlin for a week with the kids and that kind of that doesn't really exist here. Like I mean, there it's it's different. We can go to 50 states, which is awesome. We took a vacation to New York. Yeah, but it is like it's kind of like different views of the same culture, whereas like. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (37:43.734)
No.

Mike Ergo (37:48.546)
Yeah, but the culture is so similar. I mean...

Mike Ergo (37:55.106)
Exactly, man. You're eating cheese curds at the Wisconsin Dells, but you're not really like, you're not really finding different culture.

Richard (37:58.993)
Exactly. Yeah, we're not like seeing checkpoint Charlie or, you know, like historical, historically significant things. And by the way, the Berlin trip was less than a grand. Like it was like 200 bucks for tickets and then we just hotels and we rode the metro around, you know, or subway or whatever. So, you know, like I knew all of this was going to be a little bit difficult.

Mike Ergo (38:13.774)
Wow.

Wow.

Richard (38:25.737)
So I knew I had to set myself like a big hairy, like I think that's a David Goggins, right? Like I set myself a BHAG, because I knew that I was going to be like moving back to my home state for the first time in over 20 years. Moving a family there, trying to get a wife acquainted with, you know, this country. And just, I knew that I needed something to keep myself like on track, like you're talking about, you know, and, that's

Mike Ergo (38:34.029)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (38:52.728)
Yeah.

Richard (38:54.885)
me and it's what I've kind of developed over the past, what now, 10 years we've kind of been doing this and are you doing it longer than me? And it was kind of the only way to make sure that I was showing up for the family and kids and stuff. And the downside side is it does take time away from the family, which is also tough.

Mike Ergo (39:00.721)
huh.

Mike Ergo (39:15.47)
You know, I was thinking about that too rich and it's like, yeah, you're taking time away for the family. However, when you are training or when I am training my time with the family is better because of it and my time at work is better. So it's like you might be taking quantity, but you're adding quality.

Richard (39:28.415)
I agree. Yes.

Richard (39:36.051)
Yeah, you're lot more patient, I think, you know, with the kids and stuff. And yeah, so I've been doing like some volunteer work with this group called the Eagle Group of Minnesota Veterans. And it's all about trying to get people to like, learn to network and then connect for getting, you know, jobs, professional opportunities and.

Mike Ergo (39:39.074)
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Mike Ergo (39:52.718)
Mm-mm.

Mike Ergo (40:00.097)
huh.

Richard (40:02.185)
Like one of the things that I would recommend to a lot of people there is having some sort of, especially when you're unemployed and you don't feel like you have much control in the world, like getting some sort of ability to set a training plan. I mean, it's like a 5k and get out there and just run, like do something where you have a win, where you like feel good about yourself. I accomplished something today. I at least got to run it. You know, I.

Mike Ergo (40:28.462)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A run, a walk, a swim, a bike ride, something where you can, you can physically move. I agree. I fully agree with that because, know, one of the, something I learned, forget where, but it stuck with me is that when you're depressed, that stuck energy. And so if you can move forward, you're physically moving forward, um, when you're training. it helps you move forward mentally too. And emotionally.

Richard (40:32.147)
Yes.

Richard (40:36.616)
Yeah.

Richard (40:56.629)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (40:58.294)
So yeah, man, I think we're in agreement on that.

Richard (41:01.343)
Yeah, that sounds sounds about right. It was a yeah, it was a heck of a year, man, and I'm hoping that I can. I want to get faster. I want to be faster on this marathon than my technical marathon time at that fans race, because like I know it's I probably still won't break under the five hour mark, but I would love to. We'll see if I can PT up this. This tendon here and then hopefully be in actual.

Mike Ergo (41:04.877)
Dude.

Yeah.

Mike Ergo (41:14.191)
huh.

Mike Ergo (41:18.518)
in

Richard (41:30.995)
you know, shape when I go there and not limping about like I have been the whole year. So.

Mike Ergo (41:37.496)
Yeah, Well, we'll definitely have you back on after you finish that and hear about that. And then we can compare notes and on marathons.

Richard (41:42.121)
Thanks brother. Yeah.

Richard (41:47.313)
I guess my other piece of advice, if I don't know if the audience is above 40 or not, but like it's OK to be seeking like help with a physical therapist through the process. You know, like a lot of people are kind of out there running injured and. Yeah, there's there's certain criteria around that and everything, but definitely like it's important to just keep.

Mike Ergo (41:50.498)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (41:53.966)
A lot of us are.

Mike Ergo (42:02.764)
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Richard (42:14.943)
getting after it as much as you can without making yourself worse.

Mike Ergo (42:21.122)
Yeah, it's a good point, man. Having a team, having a team of support, especially the physical rehab, if to get checked out, if you have something that's more than just a, you know, a little tweak or, you know, something temporary that this kind of nagging injury. So.

Richard (42:35.113)
Yeah, like if it goes more than I think the guideline is something like if it's more than than a three on the pain scale for more than like three days after then that's something to talk to a physical therapist about.

Mike Ergo (42:42.755)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (42:49.752)
Good point, man. Good point.

Richard (42:50.869)
There's a book called like a pain and.

I'll have to send it to you. We'll link it in the show notes, but it's like injury and performance. think Matt Fitzgerald and another guy. Um, but that one opened my eyes to a lot of stuff that I had seen around me that I had never really put and dealt with personally and never really understood why some of these things had the psychological effect they do. Like when you go get diagnosed with something and all this, you know,

Mike Ergo (42:57.582)
you

Mike Ergo (43:11.054)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (43:25.176)
Yeah. Yeah.

Richard (43:25.417)
especially with my like neck and back problems when I was in Marine Corps. It's just a, yeah, whole different world now. So I think physical therapist has been my friend through this whole process, like multiple physical therapists throughout my recent training years. So.

Mike Ergo (43:29.282)
That's true.

Mike Ergo (43:40.046)
No, it's to know. Yeah, because I think some people just don't want to admit that it's as bad as it is. then in so doing make it a little worse or a lot worse. But yeah, it's good advice.

Richard (43:51.251)
Yeah. And then allostatic stress, like your life stress, like sometimes, you know, something won't hurt a lot and then it will start to hurt. And it's like, is it hurting because that is injured or is it hurting because that was already there? And now I'm dealing with X in my life or Y in my life. And then so that is like stuff that I think people should be aware of because

Mike Ergo (43:57.558)
huh.

Mike Ergo (44:04.172)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (44:14.68)
Good point.

Richard (44:19.785)
You know, if you go to a doctor, the doctor has to avoid some sort of, like they're always trying to avoid lawsuits here. You know, so they have to check all the things. And if you go get imaging done or something, it may or may not actually be what's causing your pain. And that's not you. That's just, they can't tell really. And this was a frustrating thing to me back when I went through the neck injury stuff.

Mike Ergo (44:27.256)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (44:40.43)
That's a point.

Mike Ergo (44:44.941)
Yeah.

Richard (44:49.833)
is they can't, you can take people off the street. There's studies where they've done this and they give MRIs to their back. And some people are walking around with a ton of discs that are herniated or having degenerative disc syndrome or whatever, and they don't feel a thing. And then there's people who have tons of pain and you can't really tell if the stuff that's there is just a coincidental finding or actually causing the pain.

Mike Ergo (45:05.703)
huh.

Yeah.

Mike Ergo (45:14.755)
Huh.

Mike Ergo (45:19.338)
Interesting.

Richard (45:20.223)
Yeah. So those are just, and that's like a whole nother rabbit hole. And I'm not trying to like, it's, I'm not trying to take a position as far as like, you know, certain stuff we have in the health and wellness space these days. but evaluating, like I think starting with a physical therapist until you have to go to a doctor is probably the best way to go. If for chronic.

Mike Ergo (45:47.47)
point then.

Richard (45:49.745)
non-accident-related things. If it's not an acute trauma, then it's probably best to start with a physical therapist, is all. That's what I did, it worked for me.

Mike Ergo (46:06.936)
Yeah, good stuff man. I appreciate the candor and the advice and you know just sharing your experience here man. And we'll do it again soon brother.

Richard (46:18.281)
Yeah, thanks man. And sorry to go on that last rabbit hole, it is, I just feel like it's something that that can sideline a lot of people that we don't talk about all that much as injury. So.

Mike Ergo (46:22.018)
That's important. It's important.

Mike Ergo (46:26.957)
Yeah.

Well, everyone, thank you for joining us today. It's Ginger and Chocolate. I'm Mike Ergo with my special guest, Rich Dreling. And we'll be back with you next week with another guest and interview. until next time, take it easy, everybody.

Richard (46:46.699)
Take it easy, thanks.