Flow States and Visualization

In today's episode, cohosts Lindsay and Mike discuss what a flow state is, how one finds it, and what you can do to make endurance racing more enjoyable during those long stretches.

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Transcript

Lindsay Hiken (00:01.336)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (00:02.936)
Hey everybody, welcome back to Ginger and Chocolate. My name is Mike. I'm here with my co-host, Lindsay. Lindsay, how you doing today?

Lindsay Hiken (00:09.44)
I'm doing pretty well. am just waking up as usual. got my cup. I have my cup of coffee here. So as we go through the episode, I will become more and more awake and animated.

Mike Ergo (00:15.786)
Nice.

Mike Ergo (00:25.624)
Sounds good. Yeah, I've been up for a couple hours now, so I'm as awake as I'm gonna be, I think.

Lindsay Hiken (00:34.158)
So how is your training going for in general for life and also for your marathon?

Mike Ergo (00:41.44)
Yeah.

It's coming along and I was just on vacation last week up in Sun River, Oregon and got a couple of runs in there. Yeah, it felt good and then I felt even better because I didn't know until I was leaving that it's at elevation. So it's about 4000 feet. Isn't too much, but. Did it had especially nice 4 mile run that just felt good?

Lindsay Hiken (00:50.51)
Mmm.

Nice.

Lindsay Hiken (01:07.149)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (01:11.384)
And so the training is coming along well and I'm lifting, am running and yeah, I'm, I'm in a couple of days. I'm signing up for half iron man in Oceanside. So it might, might be back in the triathlon scene. So we'll see.

Lindsay Hiken (01:24.494)
What? Holy crap, Iron Man is coming back.

Mike Ergo (01:33.056)
Yeah, we'll see. How about you, Lindsey? How's your training coming? How's everything coming along?

Lindsay Hiken (01:38.786)
Well, I'm super excited because my gravel camp trip is almost here. I leave on Saturday. I'm so excited. my gosh. And so I've been riding a lot and just had this four day weekend where I rode most days and did strength. One of the days I did strength and focused on that. But I think the training is coming along. You know, I haven't. I haven't been on my bike for.

Mike Ergo (01:44.727)
Nice.

Lindsay Hiken (02:05.166)
as many miles the gravel bike as some of the days are. So on the trip. we'll see what happens. But, you know, it's different on a trip because you don't have work or anything else kind of hanging over you. find, you know, just being out there and just having a good time. It's like, oh, we just did 45 miles on the gravel bike like piece of cake.

Mike Ergo (02:09.749)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (02:19.904)
Yeah, yeah.

Mike Ergo (02:27.884)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (02:28.974)
So whereas at home, you're kind of like, OK, well, it's like 2 o'clock. I got to get back home. What am I doing? So yeah, it's coming along. I'm super excited. I'm not going to do much this week leading up to it because I'm working and trying to get everything settled. But I am going to get on my bike a little bit. No strength. I will say this. The strength training has been hurting my knees. There's a lot of squats, gobble squats, jump squats.

Mike Ergo (02:41.122)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (02:53.656)
Mmm.

Lindsay Hiken (02:59.0)
you know, various types of squats and some of them don't hurt while I'm doing them necessarily, but then I will have knee pain later. skipping the strength this week.

Mike Ergo (03:01.354)
huh.

Mike Ergo (03:08.684)
Mmm.

Yeah, yeah, probably for the best. Well, it's like a nice little taper before your camp.

Lindsay Hiken (03:17.454)
Exactly. And you know, this is this is not a I'm not trying to disparage back roads. They have lovely tours, but this is not the kind of camp where you just go like 10 miles and then get in the van and everyone kind of goes to the next hotel and hangs out and eats food. That's not the deal. Like you're out there.

Mike Ergo (03:38.23)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (03:42.414)
no matter what, like if you want to sit in the van, can sit in the van, but the van's not coming back until everyone's done with their 45 to 80 miles. And most of the people on the tour are avid cyclists. So training is a little bit necessary. So a taper might be a good idea actually.

Mike Ergo (03:49.303)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (03:59.8)
Yeah, yeah, so this is more serious for more for the serious cycler.

Lindsay Hiken (04:05.026)
Mm Mm hmm. Yeah. I will say this. I don't think Josh listens to our podcast, to be honest, which is good, probably a little bit because I can talk about him. won't know. So. He did not grow up camping the way that I did, and this is not camping. There's cabins, but it's an old Boy Scout camp. So the cabins have like bunk beds in them.

So we'll have our own cabin, but it'll be like four bunk beds in the cabin. with sleeping bags, it's not like he's more of a Four Seasons type of guy. And I did tell him, it's cabins. It's kind of rustic. But I didn't quite get into the details of how rustic it is. So.

Mike Ergo (04:44.44)
yeah.

Mike Ergo (04:54.488)
We afraid you're going to scare him away from it.

Lindsay Hiken (04:58.19)
Well, he's going to be stuck because he's going to be out in the mountains, you know, an hour from that's right. I'm not going to say anything. I'm just going to let him see it. So we'll see how he's going to have a great time once he overcomes his shock at the cabin, I think. It's better to ask forgiveness. Sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness than it is for permission.

Mike Ergo (05:01.74)
Well, once you get them there, yeah.

Mike Ergo (05:06.388)
Ha ha ha.

Mike Ergo (05:14.412)
Yeah, yeah, That's cool. I'm excited for you.

Mike Ergo (05:23.628)
Well, I think especially if you're giving someone a new experience, know, get them there.

Lindsay Hiken (05:27.534)
Yeah, he's gonna love it. He's gonna love it. But it'll be interesting to see. I was debating about pulling my camera out and just recording and walking into the cabin. If I do that, I'll share it with you privately. Yeah, so how was your vacation? What did you guys do? Because I know it was 4th of July and did you have the whole fam up with you and everything?

Mike Ergo (05:39.564)
Ha ha ha.

Mike Ergo (05:45.1)
Yes, that sounds good. That sounds good.

Mike Ergo (05:54.292)
huh. Yeah. A lot of bike riding just on cruisers, you know, maybe the longest one we went on was like seven, eight miles. just cruising around and enjoying the scenery. It's up in the sun rivers right near the Deschutes river, central Oregon. And so it was really pretty. We did some whitewater rafting, did some, yeah, bike riding, played around. That's cool. Hey,

Lindsay Hiken (06:14.977)
Lindsay Hiken (06:24.238)
you

Mike Ergo (06:24.54)
And mostly just relaxed. Did fourth of July stuff, cooked out, ate watermelon. yeah, that was nice. A lot of sleeping. It was good. I caught up and sleep. That's for sure.

Lindsay Hiken (06:31.66)
perfect.

Lindsay Hiken (06:36.334)
That is that is great. And that's great for training. Sleeping is. Were there a lot of did you see a lot of cyclists and things up there?

Mike Ergo (06:41.752)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (06:47.288)
Yeah, a lot of more mountain bikers, a lot of mountain biking up there. Saw a few road cyclists on the path, but I mean, the path gets so clogged up with, with families bike riding that it's, not ideal for, you know, serious cyclists.

Lindsay Hiken (06:50.25)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (07:01.8)
got it, got it. Cool. Well, what are we going to talk about today?

Mike Ergo (07:09.292)
We are going to talk about flow state, what that is, how you get there, what, what the advantages of being in a flow state while you're training or racing and just talk, talk about the whole thing.

Lindsay Hiken (07:25.036)
All right, that sounds good to me. I did look it up and with my friend, Gemini, we had a little discussion, me and Gemini. it was saying that in terms of like,

Mike Ergo (07:27.639)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (07:35.276)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (07:46.528)
ultra and endurance sports because of the component of not just the physical challenge, but the mental aspects of doing an endurance sport. You know that to thrive in these events, you need to deploy some psychological strategies like visual, whoa.

Mike Ergo (07:56.482)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (08:09.762)
What is that word? Visualization and mindfulness to get into a flow state and that it's as crucial to do that as it is to train physically.

Mike Ergo (08:12.408)
There it is.

Mike Ergo (08:21.894)
huh. Yeah. So I think maybe it'd help if we define what a flow state is, at least according to Gemini. so what I have here is a flow state also known as being in the zone is a mental state where a person is fully immersed and focused on an activity, experience a sense of energized, focused, full involvement and enjoyment in the process.

Lindsay Hiken (08:29.39)
Mm.

Lindsay Hiken (08:48.979)
And have you experienced being in a flow state before?

Mike Ergo (08:55.126)
yeah, quite a bit. the interesting thing is once you realize you're in a flow state, you're back out of it, right? but yeah, I, I've, I've, I've been in flow states quite a bit with a lot of the training, especially running and cycling. I can get there and swimming too, if I'm doing distance. but more, more often than not, it's turn to run.

Lindsay Hiken (09:01.966)
Right, right.

Lindsay Hiken (09:19.086)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (09:25.431)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (09:25.612)
Yeah, how about you?

Lindsay Hiken (09:28.182)
yeah, definitely. And like you said, I'll only recognize that I've been in a flow state later after I've been in it. Usually I'll go, that was an amazing run. I felt so good or I just felt connected with nature usually on a trail run. But I'll kind of recognize that during the run, I was really connected with my breath. That seems to be something that indicates to me that I'm in a flow state is just sort of that connection with my

Mike Ergo (09:36.045)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (09:57.856)
my breathing and just this idea of sort of being present in the world around me. for me, a flow state includes, an example would be when I did Iron Man Santa Rosa and I shared this in my race report that I did on the podcast way back in 2019.

Mike Ergo (10:23.821)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (10:26.636)
I was riding through all the vineyards and I was just pedaling and I was alone. Ironman is a long race and instead of thinking about how much further I had to go on the bike or how if I'm in pain or this knee or whatever, I was just sort of feeling like the energy of being sober and how

Mike Ergo (10:30.977)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (10:55.34)
these grapes that I was riding through were beautiful and that this is something that used to take me down a really dark path. And now I was in here just sort of riding through this beautiful thing and I felt very inspired by myself in that regard and motivated. And then there was this sort of overwhelming feeling of my stepfather who had passed recently.

Mike Ergo (11:07.149)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (11:21.742)
like his presence there and he's just a really positive or was just a very positive person. And I can't even tell you how quickly I got through that part of the ride because it just was like there and then it was done. And I feel like that was a big flow state for me. It was amazing. That's probably my favorite part of the race besides running down the finish shoot.

Mike Ergo (11:26.828)
Hmm.

Mike Ergo (11:34.924)
Wow.

Mike Ergo (11:43.19)
Yes, that's, that is awesome. I, I, I love the idea of being able to get into an, into a flow state, especially in these longer races, because if, if you don't, it's a lot of suffering. It's a lot of, a lot of time to be out there, not where you want to be apparently, you know, if

One way not to be in a flow state is think about how far away you are from the finish line, especially in a long race, right?

Lindsay Hiken (12:13.358)
Questioning your life choices. Why am I out here? You know, that kind of thing. I can tell you I was not in a flow state when I was having that panic attack out in the end of the Santa Cruz pier, you know, swimming, swimming when I was freaking out. There was no flow state happening and the difference is such a stark, know, it's such a stark difference between feeling panic and being like, I don't want to be here. What am I doing? This is stupid.

Mike Ergo (12:17.418)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mike Ergo (12:28.947)
no. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (12:42.752)
and feeling like, whoa, this is just, know, it's all good, it's amazing, I feel my body, I feel my breath. So it's good. if you're listening to the show and you are maybe a newer endurance athlete or contemplating your first sort of long distance race of some sort.

Let's share how to get into a flow state, some of the tools that you can use to get yourself into a flow state.

Mike Ergo (13:17.4)
couple of the ones that I have are getting into a rhythmic breath and so breathing in such a pattern that you can become in sync with your breath and then for me it's with my steps too as I'm running and I notice when I when I get into a flow state I breathe the same way each time

I do a three count inhale, hold for two, and then breathe out for five counts. And, and then I counted out for a while and then eventually it becomes just how I breathe and I don't have to think about it. Uh, and then I think, um, one of the ways to that, and I don't think I don't,

Lindsay Hiken (13:54.182)
okay.

Lindsay Hiken (14:04.59)
Mm.

Mike Ergo (14:14.84)
know if it's a conscious thing or just kind of it needs some time to sort out. But when I get into flow states, it's, when I stopped resisting the discomfort of the exercise. So when I'm, when I'm running and I'm like, Oh, this is a little too fast or this is too slow or my, my legs are sore or something like those thoughts need to shake out first. And when I finally just be like, okay, I'm here, I'm here right now and feel my feet, you know,

Lindsay Hiken (14:26.401)
Uh-huh.

Lindsay Hiken (14:36.962)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (14:44.696)
hitting the ground, feel my breath going through my body. then then it happens.

Lindsay Hiken (14:51.606)
Yeah, yeah. Going back to the breath, one suggestion that I would have if you are someone who hasn't used the breath really effectively with your training is to and you could just YouTube this is to practice yogic breathing. So Mike mentioned it breathing in for a three count and breathing holding for count and then breathing out. That's a that is something that people use for mindless meditation.

Mike Ergo (15:08.396)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (15:19.17)
Wow, I can't speak today. my God. Mindfulness, meditation, and also for yogic breathing. So that's something that you could Google and you can just try it on your own at home before you're even participating in whatever training activity running, for example. And on the bike, I've used this type of breathing when I'm climbing.

Mike Ergo (15:19.352)
mindless i want to try mindless meditation

Lindsay Hiken (15:48.546)
You know, because that's a time where it's very easy to focus on the suffering that is happening on the bike. And how long is this hill? How steep is this hill? When is it going to be done? I can't, you know, I can't generate any power, blah, blah, blah. People passing you on the on the climb, for example, can throw me into a little bit of a like negative thinking, you know. So doing that breathing on the bike.

Mike Ergo (15:55.66)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (16:18.254)
just for a short period of time, you know, while I'm climbing or whatever it does seem to help as well. So, but I've practiced that during my yoga teacher training. So I just think if you try to practice it outside of working out, it might be easier for you to then deploy it while you're working out.

Mike Ergo (16:36.524)
That's yeah, it's exactly it. You got to practice beforehand and practice why they're doing it. And you can't think about getting in a flow state. You can't think about, am I in a flow state? Cause then you're out of it. Cause then you're using your forebrain. So it's, it's an interesting concept and it's hard to describe until you've been in it and then you can kind of talk around it. the one, one thing, what's that?

Lindsay Hiken (16:48.366)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (16:59.82)
Mm-hmm. You can't. I was just going to say you can't just be like activate flow state.

Mike Ergo (17:06.87)
Yeah, I mean, maybe some super yogis can do that, but the rest of us mortals, you know what? There's a couple of things that practical things about getting into a flow state that I've noticed with myself besides the breathing. well, a few things actually is having, having rituals. So, you know, I'll listen to a couple warmup songs before I get on my bike or go to run.

And I will set my phone. I'm bringing it to listen to music, I'll set my phone to do not disturb. So I'm not getting pinged and cause you know, checking to see a text message or an email or whatever notification you're getting will snap you right out of it. That's for sure. And you know what else? This, this is a, I don't know if this is just me, but I will get songs in my head sometimes when I wake up and

Lindsay Hiken (17:42.648)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (17:53.208)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (18:05.731)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (18:06.872)
I will get songs in my head that I'll stay there despite whatever I'm doing or listening to. And sometimes it'll be a song I enjoy. Sometimes it'll be a radio commercial that I hate. And the more I resist that it's there, the more that it nags at me. So I remember Iron Man probably is either 2018 or 19, Santa Rosa. And I had, uh, let it go.

Lindsay Hiken (18:17.826)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (18:25.492)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (18:36.406)
the song from Disney's Frozen in my head. Yeah, because my daughter was at the stage where she was dressing up as Elsa the princess and singing that all the time. And so that was in my head, although it's the exact opposite. It's not cold. There's no ice and snow around. And it's really hot. And I don't

Lindsay Hiken (18:38.452)
good Lord.

Lindsay Hiken (18:46.222)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (18:54.954)
Mike Ergo (19:00.312)
particularly like that song that much, but I had to fully just like, you know what, we're going to go with it and started singing in my head. Kind of started singing under my breath. And next thing I know I was up Chalk Hill and back down the other side and, and, you know, in, that zone, I've had, I've even had it with, there's this really annoying commercial one eight seven seven cars for kids.

Lindsay Hiken (19:21.772)
huh. my God, I was gonna bring up the Cars for Kids ad. I swear to God, I was gonna, when you were done talking, I was gonna bring that up. That is the absolute worst friggin' song. And it sticks, it really, God, every time I hear it, if I see it come on, I immediately try to like mute the TV.

Mike Ergo (19:27.522)
That's hilarious.

Mike Ergo (19:35.193)
yeah.

Mike Ergo (19:43.644)
I just, I jump right in. I jump right in the divan and I sing along with it because I've had that in my head, another year in Ironman, Santa Rosa on the bike. And for those unfamiliar with the Ironman, for people like me, it takes about six hours to do 112 miles. And so you have six hours to be in your thoughts or just venture into your

Lindsay Hiken (19:54.172)
god.

Lindsay Hiken (20:04.078)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (20:08.142)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (20:11.85)
subconscious and conscious mind quite a bit. So that was a, that was a tough one until I finally leaned into it and I said, you know what? Screw it. We just got to go into this.

Lindsay Hiken (20:14.37)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (20:22.384)
God, maybe I'll try that next time because I always am like mute, mute, mute and then immediately and then I've got it in my head for like three days and I'm just upset. Hey, you know what? You just brought up something which is on a race course, most race courses don't allow headphones for safety reasons. And I love to train with music. I love it. And

Mike Ergo (20:24.279)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (20:38.483)
huh. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (20:44.854)
I have those, gosh, I forgot what they're called, but they're headphones that basically don't go into your ears. They use the bone right in front of your ear to transmit the music so you can hear what else is happening. I have those and I have regular headphones depending on what I'm doing. And when I first started racing and I wasn't allowed to use headphones, it was really difficult for me because I didn't have any practice just being me.

Mike Ergo (20:54.124)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (21:14.912)
with me and my, you my own thoughts. And so I also recommend if you are like me, and you just want to train with music, which is helpful with, you know, sort of distracting you from the pain and the thoughts of like, how long is this going to be? It's all good, but but maybe practice a little bit without that so that your time on the race course isn't your first time doing that.

Mike Ergo (21:34.584)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (21:42.946)
Yes. Solid advice because that's jarring when you don't have it. I'm trying to think of where my mind goes and it's, it goes into things I've been wondering about things I've been pondering. and then, you know, with some gentle nudging, I can go back into my feet, into my, my breath, but that's a long time, six hours, you know, for at least we're talking about something like an iron man.

Lindsay Hiken (21:47.15)
.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (22:06.316)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (22:12.962)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (22:13.24)
to just notice your breath. So I'll usually have a playlist of songs in my head that I'll kind of single bounce back and forth in between. not in the longer races because that's good for me for lifting.

Lindsay Hiken (22:16.588)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (22:23.586)
That's cool. there any Metallica? I know you just went to the Metallica concert.

Lindsay Hiken (22:36.744)
huh, huh. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (22:38.562)
But I can't sustain that energy for hours. Yeah, six hours I need something like, know, EDM or house music or something, you know, with a just a steady beat.

Lindsay Hiken (22:42.594)
Six hours.

Lindsay Hiken (22:47.894)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (22:53.208)
Same, that's what I like as well, love that. I have a playlist of hip hop, which sometimes I can do that when I'm gravel riding, because there's like short bursts of energy that you need to put in for like small climbs and stuff. But I love the EDM just with a steady beat, because that helps me get my breath and my, especially running, my breath and my stride sort of in line.

Mike Ergo (22:54.732)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (23:08.674)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (23:20.896)
Yeah, uh-huh. You know, it's interesting, especially if I'm listening to music in another language, I stopped trying to understand it and it just becomes part of the music. And then I'll jump into a flow state, usually a lot quicker than if I'm concentrating on the lyrics and what they mean.

Lindsay Hiken (23:27.821)
Hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (23:37.198)
Mm hmm. That makes sense. know, when I first started, I couldn't do this now, but when I first started running with headphones, I would listen to audio books. I would listen to like mystery books and I don't do it now. But and I don't really know why I stopped. I think I stopped because I couldn't. Concentrate on the trails and also on the book, you know, I would trip and stuff because I'd be listening.

Mike Ergo (23:48.254)
huh.

Mike Ergo (24:01.814)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (24:04.834)
But one time I was listening to a, I love mysteries. I love mystery novels and I ran way up in Hutard Park. So if you live on the peninsula, very probably familiar with Hutard Park and Woodside, lovely place to run. And you can run all the way up to this road called Skyline, which kind of goes along the spine of this mountain.

So I was way up there. It was like a weekday. So there was no one around really. And this book got into a part where someone was being, you know, stalked by the killer. And I suddenly was like, I'm scared to death and I'm out here by myself. Like I'm miles away from people. And that was one of the first times, you know, being a newbie that I ran without headphones because I took them out because I was like, I need to hear.

when the stalker is coming up on me. I was terrified. I got back to the car much faster than I had intended out of fear. So stupid.

Mike Ergo (25:00.888)
Exactly

Mike Ergo (25:09.016)
Yeah, I guess the topic really, really matters when you're out there by yourself. I've listened to lot of podcasts and audio books on the bike on the longer ones.

Lindsay Hiken (25:17.314)
Yeah. Yeah, podcasts are great. Just an idea, you guys. You can listen to our podcast while you're out there on the bike. So one of the tools that could be used to get into a flow state while you're working out is doing, again, some work in advance. And that would be visualization. And I did look up some

Mike Ergo (25:24.012)
Mm-hmm.

Meh.

Mike Ergo (25:40.364)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (25:45.934)
tools and some information about visualization and how it works. It talks about just, if you, I mean, I think everyone knows what visualization is, but it's mental imagery and it's the practice of rehearsing a skill, routine or performance in one's mind, you know, prior to doing it.

So for ultra athletes, it says it's more than just seeing it involves engaging all the senses to create a vivid, multi-sensory experience of success. So if you think about running, Mike mentioned the breath in your feet, but then also like, what are you seeing around you? What are you hearing? What are you smelling? And for trail running, I love.

Mike Ergo (26:19.946)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (26:33.622)
I love to do visualization. do it a lot, especially now, because I want to get back to trail running and I haven't been able to successfully get my run back. So I am thinking about it quite a bit. And I can smell the redwoods and I can feel the...

Mike Ergo (26:49.408)
Yes.

Lindsay Hiken (26:51.724)
You know how trees drop all their leaves and their needles and stuff and so the ground becomes kind of softer and squishy a little bit. can feel that. I can feel running a little bit sometimes where the brush is a little bit closer to the trail and you kind of scrape along it. You've got your arms and things like that that you feel while you're passing through past shrubberies. And I can feel also like

Mike Ergo (26:54.648)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (27:15.085)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (27:19.298)
the sweat, because I sweat quite a bit. I'm a sweaty girl. You know, I can feel that. I can feel the hydration pack in my back. I can feel that I'm getting pretty, pretty sweaty. It feels good. It feels like I'm detoxing a little bit. And all of those, can smell sunblock, which is one of my favorite. Sunblock is one of my favorite smell, all time smells. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Mike Ergo (27:22.176)
Yes.

Mike Ergo (27:43.978)
What? Really?

That's interesting. You're the first person to tell me that.

Lindsay Hiken (27:49.302)
It's because it reminds me of. Well, it reminds me of being out there doing something like, some block. I'm on my bike. I'm running. I'm doing, you know, swimming. So whenever I smell it, even if I smell it on some rando like person in the grocery store, I'm like, they probably think I'm. Pretty much I get kind of as close as I can without being weird. So I can smell that and I like to visualize.

Mike Ergo (27:54.612)
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Mike Ergo (28:06.04)
You go up and smell the back of their neck.

Mike Ergo (28:13.093)
Hehehehehe

Lindsay Hiken (28:18.848)
success. So I like to visualize the routes that I go on regularly. And when I have completed them, what success has looked like for me and felt like for me. And not only do I find it enjoyable to dream because I just like to dream about things that are positive. I do feel like it helps me perform better because I can see what's going to happen theoretically. You know what I mean?

Mike Ergo (28:20.568)
Hmm.

Mike Ergo (28:38.466)
huh.

Mike Ergo (28:47.34)
Yes.

Lindsay Hiken (28:49.0)
And more often than not, what I see is closer to what the reality is because I'm sort of creating that reality as I go through the actual event.

Mike Ergo (28:59.05)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's I like that visualization. It's a When I when I visualize Myself it's I try to start with the Technique and let's take the run, you know, I try to focus on how my foot strikes the ground How it pushes back up how I'm my hips how I move my arms I'm keeping my spine and head upright

and how I'm breathing and how it's almost, it's almost like I'm continuing to run and the, the world is a treadmill underneath me that it just keeps going by. And I just, I'm, I'm, I'm just moving. I'm moving through it and it's a, it's a, it's a neat feeling. But the, and I've, I've also visualized what it looks like to be successful and then, but then to get into a flow state,

Lindsay Hiken (29:42.316)
Lindsay Hiken (29:54.115)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (29:56.984)
from what I understand and I've experienced, you need to let go of outcomes, right? If you're, you have a time-based outcome, you need to let go of that in the moment to achieve a flow state. You don't always have to be in a flow state, but yeah, no, no, exactly.

Lindsay Hiken (30:06.272)
Hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (30:11.68)
No, and you can't anyway, even if you wanted to. Yeah, and I think the visualization is good for sort of imagining what might trip you into a flow state. So for me, like the sensory experience, that's kind of the experience I have when I'm in a flow state. I am not worried about my pace, my time, what's.

Mike Ergo (30:26.828)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (30:38.806)
You know, what is the next thing? I'm I'm writing now. I'm to have to run. Can I complete it? How do I, you know, all the aches and pains or whatever? If I visualize the all the good, all the stuff that I love about the sport and then just go do the workout and not try to really force that on there, but just to do it. That's part of how I get into the flow state and.

Mike Ergo (30:48.024)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (30:55.798)
Yes.

Mike Ergo (31:06.54)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (31:08.898)
You know, and I just said that I feel like I'm creating the reality that I visualize. I think what I mean is that that's sort of a subconscious thing that's happening. I'm not out there going, I'm going to create this reality that I saw in my mind. It's just sort of let it all go. And then here it kind of comes without me trying in a lot of ways.

Mike Ergo (31:19.414)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (31:29.076)
Mm-hmm. Yes, that's exactly it. And I think if we're talking flow states, they seem to be easier to get into for endurance athletes in these longer base runs or long runs or long, you know, long rides. Cause if you're doing intervals or you're doing things where you have to, you know, look at your watch and notice and keep up with the time, not really going to happen.

Lindsay Hiken (31:42.414)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (31:49.848)
Mm.

Lindsay Hiken (31:55.724)
Right, and that's not really the appropriate time for it, and that's not when you need it as a tool. I I think the flow state is something that you should deploy as a tool to help you get through the part of the race or just the training that you're actually doing. Some of these...

Mike Ergo (32:18.21)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (32:23.534)
So this is interesting. Some of the positives or benefits of visualization are the

So neural pathway activation. So it says when you visualize, you stimulate the same brain regions that are active during the physical performance. So this strengthens and the neural pathways essentially reprogramming the brain for successful outcomes. And so that's why you can do the visualization and then let it go when you're doing the event because you're already pre-programmed for this if you've done the.

Mike Ergo (32:58.048)
yeah. Michael Phelps did this. I mean, I'm sure a lot of athletes have done this, but he's the most notable example. He, he, he played the tape as his coach would say, and visualize every single stroke that he would have in the pool. And yeah, it builds the mind the same way training does.

Lindsay Hiken (33:00.675)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (33:17.39)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, and he, I mean, was he successful at all?

Mike Ergo (33:23.542)
He got a few gold medals. Might have the record for the most for a man. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (33:27.438)
Maybe this works, you So a couple of things it said in here was in terms of refining skills around visualization. You know, athletes can practice specific movements, which you discussed a little bit, you know, thinking about running, you know, hips, feet hitting the ground, that kind of thing. And you can also.

visualize some of the timing things we talked about. You can visualize them to get a better outcome, but then you're not focused on the time necessarily while you're racing or training. It's like you can focus on in your visualization on pacing strategies or problem solving scenarios. like navigating rough terrain or managing discomfort or some other

Mike Ergo (34:06.808)
Right.

Lindsay Hiken (34:24.002)
technical difficulty that arises, like changing a tire, things like that that could potentially come up and derail you. If you visualize those happening and how you're going to respond to those, your response will be more successful. So not just saying, like, this is going to be great. I'm going to have I'm going to have.

a lovely flow state and I'm going to get to the finish line like boom, like that, that might happen. But then also these things of like, what happens if I get to part of the trail that is incredibly rocky and steep and I can't run and how am I going to get through that and how am I going to come down the other side where it's also steep and there's shale and I'm slipping, know, visualizing those things will help you be successful. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (35:13.58)
Yes. Yes. The other part of the, or visualization of flow state come together is the, like I mentioned a little earlier, I don't think I gave any examples though, was having rituals before you work out or before you race. And so for my training runs, I'm trying to think what I did. I'd listened to the same song. I'd have a few songs of, while I was doing some dynamic stretching.

Lindsay Hiken (35:40.366)
Mike Ergo (35:41.496)
And it would be the same three songs and they would tell my body that we're about to, to work out. And I think one of the things that, that we haven't talked about that's worth bringing up is that nervous energy that can come before a workout where our body's like, Oh, we got to do this. It's going to be uncomfortable. There's going to be discomfort. Can I do it? Is it going to be bad? How bad is it going to be? How long is it going to take? When's it going to be over?

Lindsay Hiken (35:57.272)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (36:07.85)
once you start doing these, these rituals to get your body ready, it starts to get in the zone and get, get ready, get ready to work out and, and let go of any kind of fear, nervous energy and just get, get ready. So do you do certain things?

Lindsay Hiken (36:14.552)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (36:25.122)
Yeah. If you're used to that. No, but I should. One of the things I do something negative. Yeah, well, and I need to to work on reprogramming my brain, not just pre programming, because I do have rituals and they're all around.

Mike Ergo (36:33.112)
I'm sure you do, you're just not aware of it.

Lindsay Hiken (36:50.882)
fear and discomfort. You know what I mean? Like you're just talking about it's like, no, what's going to happen? How long is this going to be? Am I going to, you know, am I going to have a flat tire? Am I going to not be able to keep up with the people I'm riding with a blah, blah, blah. And if I think about it, that is part of my ritual. It's like, I go through it every time before I get on the bike or before I run. I have all of these things I think about actually before I swim as well. It's like,

Mike Ergo (36:53.194)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (37:17.398)
which lane am I gonna swim in today because I feel tired. feel, coming up with all of my excuses why my performance might not be as spectacular as I would like it to be, particularly in comparison to other people is part of my ritual. yeah, it doesn't really serve me now that I'm thinking about it.

Mike Ergo (37:17.409)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (37:39.776)
I don't know. I don't know, Lindsay. I might even reframe that to say that if you can put it in the context of kind of Persian yourself of all the doubts, just letting them go through because they're there, you know, and then that can be part of the ritual. don't think that's a bad thing.

Lindsay Hiken (37:50.093)
Hmm

Lindsay Hiken (37:53.442)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (38:00.366)
That's a really good way of reframing that because I don't let any of these things keep me from doing it. I still go do the thing. So it's just these thoughts. I'd like to have some positive thoughts as well.

Mike Ergo (38:07.899)
huh. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (38:15.936)
Yeah, you can, you can put those in there and that's another part leading. It's a good segue Lindsay into the other part of achieving a flow state and visualization is having positive sayings or our mantras. so, you know, you could, for the run, it could be, you know, light and fast feel my feet or just like easy sayings that you can have, be my breath and

Lindsay Hiken (38:29.816)
Mm.

Mike Ergo (38:45.238)
different things like that where you can, you can go through those while you're running or swimming or biking, or beforehand, the things you say to yourself that you consciously put in there and do the same thing each time.

Lindsay Hiken (38:51.095)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (38:58.869)
I like be here now. I use that mantra a lot just in life in general. If I bring myself back into right now, as opposed to what's happening in the future, what just happened, you know, I sucked on that climb and it was really hard and blah, blah, blah. And there's another climb coming up.

Mike Ergo (39:01.581)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (39:12.055)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (39:16.535)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (39:19.414)
If I'm here right now, it's like, well, right now I'm descending. Right now it's beautiful. Or right now I'm climbing and I can do all the things I talked about earlier. I can smell the trees. I can, you know, feel the terrain underneath my feet or my bike. So be here now is one of the mantras that I like to use.

Mike Ergo (39:33.039)
huh.

Mike Ergo (39:39.402)
Little Ram Dass. Yeah, I'm a fan. does.

Lindsay Hiken (39:40.654)
Mm hmm. Yeah, it works really well. Yeah, it works. Yeah, it works very well. So you don't have to be a woo woo person by any stretch of the imagination to use these these kinds of mantras successfully. So we've talked about mindfulness on this podcast quite a bit. So we don't necessarily need to go deep into mindfulness, but.

Mike Ergo (39:54.668)
No.

Mike Ergo (40:03.81)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (40:08.614)
One of the things that Gemini suggested helps get into a flow state is to practice mindfulness in advance of the workout. And by mindfulness, they just mean sort of mindfulness meditation. If you aren't familiar with it, you could Google it, YouTube it. I recommend YouTube because you can have someone show you how to do it and go along with there. You can get a guided meditation.

Mike Ergo (40:34.2)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (40:38.806)
A lot of mindfulness is about connecting with the breath. so it goes back to that yoga breathing we were talking about earlier. If you can practice a little mindfulness in advance, it will help you get back to be here now, connect with the breath, all of those things while you're working out.

Mike Ergo (40:42.168)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (41:00.246)
Yes, exactly. And you know, flow states are great and mindfulness is great. And it's, it's a goal and it's, it's, it's a wonderful thing to achieve and be in, you know, flow state. And then I've had moments where I've enjoyed exploring my thoughts and seeing where they go. get the most random shit will come up while I'm racing or doing long runs or rides.

Lindsay Hiken (41:21.208)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (41:29.024)
I think this is also during, I mean, it's a six hour bike ride. So many things came up, during one of my iron man races. And I pondered for at least an hour, maybe two, if the, if the movie, wedding singer still held up today, if I watched it again, I don't know why that came up. It did. And so I thought about it. Yeah, probably not.

Lindsay Hiken (41:44.974)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (41:49.548)
I doubt it holds up. I sincerely doubt it.

Mike Ergo (41:55.052)
But that was one of the random things and I enjoyed just like kind of having that thought trip and that was was fun too.

Lindsay Hiken (41:59.918)
Mm hmm. It's like, where did this where did this thought come up? I did have my ex-husband's mother pop up one time and I was like, hey, how are you? And it wasn't like a negative thing. It just was a thing. And I hadn't thought about her for years and years. So, yeah, it can be a little random, some of these thoughts, but they're not all they're not all bad necessarily. They're just, you know, they just are what they are. And in fact,

Mike Ergo (42:08.088)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (42:29.518)
The guy I interviewed not too long ago, Jeff McGregor, who was running 100 mile races, he talked a little bit about the mental aspects of racing ultra, running 100 miles, you're gonna have thoughts. It is what it is. And he talked about the thoughts going into a dark place and then coming back out. So.

Mike Ergo (42:44.503)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (42:56.908)
the idea of like this too shall pass no matter where you are with your thoughts is that it's not going to stay the same, you know, all the time for the entire length of the workout or the event.

Mike Ergo (43:00.056)
Yes. Uh huh.

Mike Ergo (43:10.584)
That's true. You know, it, reminds me, um, just about thoughts and, what sustains you and what keeps you going is, uh, um, bringing it back to 2017, my first Ironman, I'm in Lake Sonoma swimming and I'm starting to get a little overwhelmed at the distance. My mind is starting to freak out. Like it's the first half mile of the swim and

Lindsay Hiken (43:28.504)
Mm.

Mike Ergo (43:40.984)
And my mind kept going, yeah, but after this, you still have 140 more miles. Yeah, but this is a long swim. You can't do this. And all these doubts were coming up and I was starting to breathe a little heavy. My yoga teacher, Perry came up in my mind with something he said quite often during when we'd be practicing yoga. He just said, let us study breath, be your guide. And he was like my Obi-Wan Kenobi. I tell him that and, uh, and

Lindsay Hiken (43:56.91)
Mm.

Lindsay Hiken (44:07.063)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (44:09.4)
that helped me get into that flow state for the race and just connecting with my breath. Just, okay, if I can anchor myself in the breath, then I can continue to go. I can do this as long as I can connect with my breath and that became my mantra and my anchor. Let a steady breath be your guide. And it doesn't have to be that, but it can be something like that where you anchor yourself as like, this is what I can do and this will sustain me.

Lindsay Hiken (44:28.142)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (44:37.198)
Mm hmm. I heard a inspirational speaker and I totally just forgot her name Mel. Yes. And she talks about the. This thing that she. Develop when she was depressed and, you know, lost her job and blah, blah, blah, and that she started counting just need to get out of bed, just needed to move forward in life, and she started counting backwards from five.

Mike Ergo (44:46.294)
Robbins?

Lindsay Hiken (45:06.542)
And so 54321 and that if you're doing that, you will move forward with the next thing. So say you're laying in bed and you are like, I don't want to get out of bed. I don't want to do this. If you're thinking I'm getting out, I have to get out of bed or whatever. If you count 54321, you'll just sit up and do it. So not 12345, but 54321. And I have found that that's true for me when I don't want to do something.

Mike Ergo (45:18.005)
huh.

Lindsay Hiken (45:34.828)
or I'm afraid of doing something or whatever. I'm excited to do something, but I'm apprehensive counting back from five. So I counted my strokes when I was swimming in Lake Sonoma as well. I counted my strokes backwards, five, four, three, two, one, five, four, three, two, one, five, four, three, two, one. And I was breathing. I breathe usually every third stroke, but I was kind of breathing with my counting and.

Mike Ergo (45:42.4)
Yes.

Mike Ergo (45:50.114)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (45:59.545)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (46:02.946)
counting down five, four, three, two, one, kept me from thinking in the negative, like, can I go this long? I could go five strokes. And when I hit that one, it was like, well, I'm starting my strokes over. I could just go five more strokes. And that, I don't know if it was put me into a flow state as much as it just kind of put me into a state where I wasn't focusing on fear or negative.

Mike Ergo (46:16.898)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (46:32.302)
thoughts or getting annoyed with people around me, you know, because in Iron Man, in Santa Rosa, there's two laps. And so the really fast guys come around and swim over you. They really do. They really do. A guy just took his hand and just pushed me under the water, you know, and I was like, Hey, I'm a human being. I'm trying to breathe over here. Like I realized that you're

Mike Ergo (46:36.364)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (46:46.346)
swim up your butt and then push you away. Yeah, right. It's awful.

Mike Ergo (47:01.113)
Holy shit. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (47:03.2)
Actually, there was a guy who clearly, you know, newer to the process, and it had put him into a state of panic. And so I saw him off to the side, like hyperventilating, and kind of just floating there. This is during Santa Rosa, like I when I was breathing on my left, every time I breathe on my left for a little bit, I could see this guy. And I saw the

Mike Ergo (47:24.77)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (47:33.218)
paddleboard person start turning towards him. And so I just stopped for a second and was like, hey, hey, you can float on your back and just, just try to breathe big deep breaths because they're coming. And you don't want them, you know, you don't, you don't want them to pull you out. You're good. You're all good. They swam over you, but they're gone, you know, and

Mike Ergo (47:51.382)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (47:57.997)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (47:58.966)
He was like, OK. I don't know if he actually finished or not, but I was just like, just bring the breath down because this paddleboard person, once they get over there, you're done, you know. And but it was from that. It was from that swimming over, you know, him that had put him into that panic mode of like, I'm not going to be able to do that. And I just was still doing my five, four, three, two, one as this guy was pushing me into the water.

Mike Ergo (48:25.371)
You

Lindsay Hiken (48:27.278)
And I was just like, oh, five, four, three, two, under the water. Okay, now I'm back above the water again.

Mike Ergo (48:33.292)
Yeah, I can deal with that. But I think that my worst swim, the one I did not like, or I liked the least was when I did a half Ironman in China. And the athletes there, a lot of them did not line up really with what their swim times would be. They just pushed their way to the front. And so you got a lot of slow swimmers, you got to go

Lindsay Hiken (48:47.18)
I remember that.

Lindsay Hiken (48:56.08)
Mike Ergo (48:59.894)
by and not just slow swimmers. We had a lot of people who decided to do breaststroke in an Ironman race, which is really fun when you swim with other people because if you get right behind someone before they do their kick, you can get kicked right in the face really hard. There was no flow state that day for me.

Lindsay Hiken (49:04.588)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (49:14.552)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Now, if you see me, I usually do a little breaststroke during any triathlon. And if you see me doing breaststroke, it's because I'm peeing. I can't flutter kick and pee, but I always have to pee and I try to pee before, this is so gross, but I try to pee before I get out of the water because otherwise,

Mike Ergo (49:29.325)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (49:33.596)
yeah.

Mike Ergo (49:41.986)
Got to.

Lindsay Hiken (49:43.126)
I used to stop like at the porta potty, like in transition, even on like, like an Olympic, I'd be like, do do do into the porta potty. And my coach was like, P in your wetsuit, dude, don't like get out and then go into the porta potty in transition. Like, what are you doing? But I can't flutter kick and pee. Can you flutter kick and pee?

Mike Ergo (49:48.865)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (49:59.788)
Exactly,

No, I can just pull and then and pee. I feel like we can make this a whole episode. When to pee during triathlon and how.

Lindsay Hiken (50:08.686)
Lindsay Hiken (50:13.486)
never ever occurred to me to just pull and pee till you just said it.

Mike Ergo (50:21.388)
You heard it here first folks, pulling pee.

Lindsay Hiken (50:23.99)
I'm out here kicking people in the head and peeing on them doing breaststroke. Well, dang, I'm sorry if you were right behind me in any race. I apologize. Well, any last words on flow state visualization? You know, getting through an event or training?

Mike Ergo (50:28.738)
Not only do they get kicked on, but they get pissed on.

Mike Ergo (50:52.566)
No, I think we can revisit this and I can think of a couple of people I'd like to have on the show to talk a little more about it. And we can, I'm serious. We've to do an episode of when and how to Peter in a triathlon.

Lindsay Hiken (50:58.592)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (51:08.108)
That definitely needs to be part of one of our talks because I just learned something new after 15 years, you know, and yeah, there's a lot of tricks to make your race faster, you know, and along with peeing, I think topic would be transition, how to successfully transition. I'm also not good at that, so I can use a lot of tricks myself. So we'll have another episode about that.

Mike Ergo (51:14.87)
Yeah, exactly.

Mike Ergo (51:26.658)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (51:38.19)
But in the meantime, get out there. And I think what we've learned today is that to get into a flow state or a state where you're just really one with your workout or one with what you're doing in an event, there's pre-workout stuff for you to do that's mental. visualization in advance of the event.

learning how to do yogic breathing or meditation in advance of the event. All of these things are going to help you have a better, more successful event, but they require that you train on them just the way that you train your body. So I think that's probably the biggest takeaway today.

Mike Ergo (52:21.208)
Yes. Yeah, I agree. That is, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (52:26.52)
Cool. Alrighty folks, well, thanks for listening as usual. And if there's one thing that you could do to help the show, it would be to share it. whatever podcast app you're listening to us on, or if you're watching YouTube, please just send the link to one friend this week. If you do that, that would help the show immensely. And we will see you next week.

Mike Ergo (52:47.564)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (52:51.266)
Alright, take care everyone.

Lindsay Hiken (52:52.696)
Bye.