Maddie Valley on Transitioning

Summary

In this episode, Mike and Lindsay engage in a deep conversation with Maddie Valley about mental health, the Ironman journey, and the challenges faced by trans athletes in sports. They discuss the importance of community, representation, and the personal experiences that shape their identities. Maddie shares her journey of transitioning and the fears associated with it, while also highlighting the support she has received from the triathlon community. The conversation emphasizes the need for understanding and acceptance in sports, as well as the joy that comes from overcoming adversity and finding one's place in the world.

Contact Maddie:

Maddie.Valley@tridot.com

Website - valley-coaching.com

Instagram - @Valley_Coaching

Takeaways

• Mental health check-ins are crucial for well-being.
• Training can significantly improve mental health.
• Racing for a cause adds meaning to the journey.
• Transitioning can be a challenging and scary process.
• Fear of judgment can hinder personal growth.
• Support from the community is vital for trans athletes.
• Disclosing medical information can be a barrier to competition.
• Finding joy in the journey is essential for athletes.
• Representation in sports can inspire others.
• Conversations about identity and acceptance are necessary.

Keywords

mental health, Ironman, triathlon, trans athletes, community, representation, identity, sports, challenges, support

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Transcript

Mike Ergo (00:01.491)
Hey, welcome back to Ginger and Chocolate everyone. I am your co-host Mike and I'm here with Lindsay. Lindsay, how you doing?

Lindsay Hiken (00:08.285)
Hello, I'm doing pretty well. had a great weekend. Got on my bike of bunch, so can't complain about that.

Mike Ergo (00:17.853)
good feeling. Yeah. Yeah. My weekend was, well, good. You know, my wife and daughter got back from a vacation. They're out in Italy for a little while and, yeah, I had some good time with my son. We, hung out quite a bit and, I even took him to Metallica the other weekend. So that was, that was fun. A lot of good times. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (00:28.144)
Awesome.

Lindsay Hiken (00:39.207)
Mini headbanger. So let's check in on our mental health this time, this episode. So how is your mental health doing? Do you have any challenges? Things are going well.

Mike Ergo (00:44.531)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (00:52.519)
All in all pretty good. And I think that ties into training for me. If I'm not training, you know, sometimes despair or anxiety or just all kinds of things creep in insecurities. And I realized if I'm training, if I'm running on lifting or whatever I'm doing, physical, physical wise, it gets that energy out.

and it kind of exposes the illusion of lot of these anxieties and depressive thoughts. Is that the same for you?

Lindsay Hiken (01:28.459)
Yeah, mean, so for me, mental health right now is pretty good, pretty stable. I had an adjustment of my meds a few weeks ago, and it takes a few weeks to kick in. Usually, that's something that given my my age and my hormonal stage in life, aka menopausal shit show, I have to adjust.

Mike Ergo (01:40.051)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (01:56.135)
You know, a lot, I have to adjust the meds, my psych meds to just keep up with what the rest of my body's doing. And so I was in a deep funk, you know, and they made an adjustment and one of my meds takes about a month or so to actually like fully adjust. So for me, feeling, I think that that's finally happened. I feel pretty even keel. I, in fact, I think I did a little bit more training than I've been doing just because I felt.

a little better in general that the dry, you know, the sort of instinct to just want to curl in bed and put the covers over my head has lifted. And so it's made training easier. Prior to that, I was forcing myself to get out there, you know, and so so I had a great weekend. It was all, you know, all good, all fun and feeling lighter. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (02:41.331)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (02:49.609)
That's good. I find that I've had that experience with the adjustment of medication and sometimes just the beginning of it or the prospect of it is, is hopeful if things aren't going right. And, so I don't know if it's placebo at first, but at least I get like a spike and just like, okay, there's, there's a new possibility here. And then then when it actually kicks in, it's even better. So, okay, good.

Lindsay Hiken (03:15.473)
Mm hmm. Absolutely. It helps to have someone hear you. You know, when I'm on meds and it helps to have someone, my doctor say, yeah, I hear that and we're going to make some changes. And you're right, there is sort of this like, OK, relief is on the horizon and I feel I feel better immediately. But then when they finally actually kick in and work, I'm like, I feel completely.

Mike Ergo (03:21.31)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (03:39.219)
stable, which is not my normal, you know, it's not my default position. anyway.

Mike Ergo (03:43.101)
Ha

Mike Ergo (03:47.465)
Yeah, I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that. All right. Well, I've been excited about this episode for a while now. Today we got a very special guest, my friend and now friend of the show, Maddie Valley. Maddie, welcome to the show.

Maddie Valley (04:05.056)
Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to catch up and it's always wonderful to see you.

Mike Ergo (04:06.931)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (04:14.089)
You know, I was thinking, and I was trying to think when we met up, I think it was Iron Man Santa Rosa, and was it 2018 or 2019? I can't remember.

Maddie Valley (04:25.132)
2019, yeah, but I had been following your journey while I was training for my first Ironman in 2018. So I had seen the videos. had, I believe that was the year you went to Kona, right, in 2018 or was it 2017? Yeah.

Mike Ergo (04:41.577)
2017 yeah it was tail end of 2017 and then the I think the stories came out 18

Maddie Valley (04:47.594)
Yeah, so I saw the 2017 Kona footage and so I was very familiar with the name Mike Ergo by the time I arrived in Santa Rosa. So I was super excited, super excited to finally meet you in person. I was just so amazed by what you were doing and your experiences and everything and it was such an inspiration and motivation for me while I was training for my first and second Ironman.

Mike Ergo (04:56.424)
You

Mike Ergo (05:17.691)
thank you, Maddie. It's so nice to hear. I remember we all sat down at a breakfast spot. And I think your sister was there too. And we all had with the Ironman Foundation. we all, it's something I really appreciate about that time in my life doing the Ironman Foundation races that they set up a time to everyone to just kind of come and meet before the race.

Maddie Valley (05:26.067)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (05:39.059)
That's cool.

Maddie Valley (05:40.373)
Yeah, definitely enjoyed that. That's what I loved about it during 2020 when we weren't racing is that they were still providing us an opportunity to get together weekly, monthly, whatever it was, via group rides, just kind of like a happy hour kind of thing. And so it was great to stay in touch with this kind of adopted family that I had.

Mike Ergo (05:47.187)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (05:59.837)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (06:06.602)
the last few years and so- by the time we reached- Lake Placid twenty twenty one there was. Probably about thirty thirty ambassadors there from the Ironman Foundation and- it was like we had never left each other because we were. We had spent all twenty twenty all together so it was awesome.

Mike Ergo (06:22.802)
Yeah.

Yeah, I specifically remember all the virtual rides we had for it was like, I forget exactly what it was called, but we were raising money to for for funds for COVID-19, I think. And we're having all these like group rides together.

Lindsay Hiken (06:41.907)
Nice. 2019 was a good year because this is when I met Mike as well at the Iron Man Santa Rosa.

Mike Ergo (06:43.55)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (06:48.797)
Hmm?

Yeah, yeah. Yes. So it's the year we all came together. I like that. Yeah.

Maddie Valley (06:52.03)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (06:57.331)
It speaks to the community that is triathlon. And one of the reasons I love triathlon is that we're all different from different walks of life. We come together on the course. Some of us are slower than others. And I'll speak for myself. I'm not saying that about you guys. You guys are faster than me. But, you know, it's a party in the back of the back of the group there and.

Mike Ergo (07:03.879)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (07:24.083)
And it's fun just because you meet such interesting people. know, I've I've developed a long term friendship with Mike and though I'm not part of the Iron Man Foundation, I've met a lot of good people that are and it's kind of a cool thing that they are able to bring in such an eclectic group of people.

Mike Ergo (07:41.553)
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I don't know about you, Maddie, but the one thing I've learned not just through Ironman Foundation, but through racing is a practical skill of how to apply sunscreen because you probably watch that kind of footage and I was lobster red. I was torched.

Lindsay Hiken (07:59.027)
you

Maddie Valley (08:00.042)
I've I've always been really bad about it but my partner is- also ginger and so she- make sure that I am supplying sunscreen all time she tells me all the time. I I will not take care of you when you have- skin cancer down the road.

Mike Ergo (08:10.864)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (08:20.067)
Let's get good.

Mike Ergo (08:22.355)
That's

Lindsay Hiken (08:25.309)
So I know why Mike was part of the Iron Man Foundation. What was your, how come you participated in that, Maddie?

Maddie Valley (08:34.558)
Yeah, so I was working for the National Park Service at the time. I was a federal law enforcement officer. for like three years, I had just been trying to achieve the goal of completing an Ironman for myself. And while I was running the race and even all of those training videos I had leading up to the race was I was seeing that everybody was racing for somebody else or something else.

And that was really inspiring to me. so like watching Mike race for the Gold Star families and all of his fallen brothers on the back of his Jersey and everything. was so inspired by that, that I wanted to, now that I had completed my own race, I wanted to race for somebody else. I wanted it to mean something more than just me crossing the finish line. And so I had initially thought I was doing

for like the fallen law enforcement officers like the whatever the blue line foundation or whatever it was called, I don't remember. But it still didn't really like speak to me as deeply and I had been seeing a lot of Ironman Foundation footage going into the race that I was like, you know what? I think that's the direction that I wanna go. It's hitting a lot more things.

Mike Ergo (09:43.005)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (10:01.713)
I was then racing for Santa Rosa which was a wildfire. Event so- it definitely fit more with the whole conservation environmental aspect of my life with being with the National Park Service so. Once I was and I was I was. I was addicted to addicted to the family and friends that I had had created and wanted to keep going so I stayed with the foundation until.

Mike Ergo (10:13.991)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (10:15.88)
Mm.

Mike Ergo (10:30.607)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (10:31.471)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. That's awesome. So one of the things about Maddie that I think is something we've never addressed on this on the podcast, I don't think, is that is the topic of trans athlete. And I think it's a great topic. think it's an important topic in sport.

both on the professional level and also on the amateur level. People have varying thoughts about it and I would love to hear sort of a little bit about your journey as an athlete.

Maddie Valley (11:11.336)
a scary journey a scary journey and- a difficult journey for sure. I've always struggled with- mental health issues and then and that's. One hundred percent the root of the issue- never felt comfortable in my own skin- long to transition. Every night when I went to bed and- from as long as I can remember.

Lindsay Hiken (11:13.935)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (11:13.98)
Hmm.

Maddie Valley (11:39.566)
And so something that was holding me back was the fear of being able to not be able to compete. There was such a negative stigma around trans athletes and I was afraid that I would potentially lose the opportunity to even work out. Not that I am a fast athlete or a professional athlete, but.

Mike Ergo (11:58.217)
the opportunity to.

Mike Ergo (12:04.605)
Hmm.

Maddie Valley (12:06.76)
I didn't want to lose something that was providing me with so much joy that was helping alleviate the mental health problems that I was having, like Mike was saying, with the fact that when I'm swim, bike, run, you know, I'm can not think about those anxieties and be depressed. And so the ability to, the possibility to lose those

Mike Ergo (12:30.341)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (12:36.114)
things because I was transitioning was a huge fear of mine. And then in addition to that was the fear of losing friends and family. And I did not want to have my name dragged through the mud. I didn't want to be, I didn't want to, to what I was seeing with, with Leah Thomas and, and, other athletes in the past, I didn't want that experience to happen to me. And so I was just keep my head down.

and will hold on and my mantra was maybe in the next life because this isn't the life that it's going to happen and I'm going to live as long as I can but I don't know how long that will actually be because I am so unhappy with how things are and I don't want to be, I don't want to be Matt, I don't want to be Matt. So it was a big struggle to even come out and to mentally

Mike Ergo (13:20.926)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (13:24.083)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (13:32.155)
get ready for this because I was so afraid and had such insecurities about the whole thing and anxiety about it. And then even when I started transitioning, those anxieties were turned to just crippling fear and the idea of having to, I mean, Iron Man is a long race.

Mike Ergo (13:51.775)
Hmm.

Maddie Valley (13:56.103)
of racing so even if you shave before the race you're gonna have facial hair by the time you're you're starting the run and- you know the idea of of of running with. A sports bra showing and a and facial hair was was was crippling fear and- and- again the whole idea of that. Any moment my name could be dragged through the mud because- I place higher than somebody else or or-

Mike Ergo (13:56.569)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (14:13.854)
Hmm.

Maddie Valley (14:25.657)
I have a better day than somebody else. Excuse me, somebody else. So I don't know if that answered the question.

Mike Ergo (14:30.407)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (14:30.749)
How old were you? It did, it did. How old were you when you finally were able to start the transition? How long ago was that? Because I feel like there's a long way to go in terms of rights for trans people. But I also know, even in my own family, we have someone transitioning. won't say their name because I don't know that they want to be put out in a podcast. But that happened in college for them. And

Mike Ergo (14:36.659)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (14:59.119)
recently, you know, in the last couple years, and there was a lot more acceptance in their friend group and with their partner, because there was more information and access to information out there, I think than like when I was in college, there would have been there was no information about this. There was no understanding you were either someone who was open minded, or you were not. And it was just a natural like, are you an open minded person, not that there's information. So I'm kind of curious about your timing of that.

Mike Ergo (15:11.016)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (15:28.403)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (15:28.614)
Yeah, so I grew up in the 90s with, know, trans people were, mean, the violence against trans people was praised on Jerry Springer. You know, was the butt of the joke in movies and TV shows and everything. And so I had such fears based off of that that was holding me back. in 2021 was when I finally

Mike Ergo (15:40.061)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (15:45.234)
Yeah.

Maddie Valley (15:56.358)
I finally realized that I can't live another day as Matt. I'm 31 and life is going by. I feel like if I stay as Matt, I probably have four more years to live. if I transition, I have a whole life left. I regret waiting as long as I did to 31, but it was not safe. It was not the environment it was that it is today.

Mike Ergo (16:08.115)
Hmm.

Maddie Valley (16:27.009)
even in twenty twenty one when I started taking hormones a few months later Leah Thomas beats out Riley whatever her lot Riley Gaines I think is what her last name is and that went public and hit the news and and Leo was destroyed publicly because of that and and- that was only three months in or- taking medication that I was like did I make a mistake what am I doing-

Mike Ergo (16:38.451)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (16:56.813)
I don't know if I'm ready for this. Is this not the safe world that I thought it was when I started? yeah, it's definitely a different, you know, it's a little bit more socially acceptable now than it was 30 years ago, but we still, you're right, still a very long way to go for sure.

Mike Ergo (17:23.625)
Yeah, it's scary. It can be scary. Go ahead.

Lindsay Hiken (17:24.893)
Can you, sorry, no, no, Mike, I'm fine. You wanna?

Mike Ergo (17:29.421)
what I, what I'd say to that is just finding common ground with, with Maddie is that when it's interesting that the intersection of just human experience and stories, and then people being put up as like a political talking point, you know, I'm thinking specifically of, of a couple of friends of mine when we spoke about our feelings against the Iraq war. when my friends was on,

another Iraq war vet was on, got like a Fox talking show and he became, you know, this lightning rod for like, you were a bad person because this is how you feel. And this is, like, this is, this is my experience and I'm not sure what, what to tell you about it, but you're right. The fear, I'm sure Maddie of like becoming this focal point for, you know, national debate or international debate is gotta be pretty scary.

Maddie Valley (18:31.65)
Yeah, for sure. you know, it's the whole idea about it in the first place is absurd and ridiculous. If everybody was the same height and size, there wouldn't be a reason for competition. Even across genders. mean, Michael Jordan was only what, four, six, five somewhere in there. And Tim Duncan was seven, one, you know, so he had a height advantage, physical advantage.

Mike Ergo (18:50.749)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (18:55.602)
Yeah.

Maddie Valley (19:00.1)
you know Lucy Charles Barclay has has a wingspan that's way bigger than mine and she's a few years younger than me there's no way I could swim thirty minutes so you know it's the idea behind that I have thirty five years of testosterone and muscle and all of this other other stuff in my system that that would make me a better athlete than somebody who has genetically.

Mike Ergo (19:09.705)
Ha

Maddie Valley (19:29.711)
and has as genetic gifts and maybe they had some financial backgrounds that was able to allow them to go to swim camps or run camps or they were able to do this stuff earlier in their life that they were able to develop these skills. I didn't have any of that. I'm five, six, maybe five, seven with some hokas on.

Mike Ergo (19:54.889)
Hahaha.

Lindsay Hiken (19:55.091)
One thing I think is a little bit parallel. I mean, not entirely, but the black experience in sport is and this does not apply to me at all. I'm mixed race and I got my mom's side of athletic talent, which is not not a lot, to be honest. But but black Americans, you know, we were bred like livestock, to be honest, when we were slaves.

Mike Ergo (20:23.635)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (20:23.845)
And so the strongest ones survived, the most muscly, you know, ones that were able to do the most work are the ones that survived. And so a lot of times you see maybe a sport that's predominantly white, and then you see a black athlete break through. And there's a big difference in, you know, I saw someone on TikTok talking about like,

Can we just, I mean, and he was kind of joking, but it was like, can we keep one sport for white people? Because every time a black guy shows up, like Tiger Woods, and then they were like, well, we still have tenants. And then they're like, oh, wait, no, we don't wait, you know. And but partially that's like, that's breeding. I mean, we it's just like anything else that you breed for specific purpose, you're going to see an overall, you know, you're going to see a advantage towards that.

Mike Ergo (20:57.609)
Yeah.

Maddie Valley (21:00.312)
We.

Lindsay Hiken (21:15.483)
whatever it is. And so I do feel like the idea that a trans athlete would have an advantage other people have, if you're going to apply that, then you could apply it to the entire black community because we were just like a trans athlete would be making conscious choices to change their physiology. We didn't make a conscious choice, but the truth is there was a change and that's from, the breeding. so you could take us all out of sport as well. or at least most of us,

So I think that that's your argument is a good one that says, you you don't necessarily have an advantage. But really quickly, I want to back up because one of the things I think that's really a problem, I feel like the athlete thing really stems from people trying to find reasons to not like a trans person in general. Like there's a whole litany of reasons.

They're going to use the bathroom. They're going to win in sports. They're going to. mean, these are all people who are coming from a place of ignorance. You know, you hear just completely absurd things. They're going to do this to my kid when they go to school. It's like the process is not. And I've gotten into an argument with someone about this. was like, the process is not fast. So if you could just do a high level of what the process is like. So there's if someone is feeling uncomfortable and they don't really have information, they can understand this isn't something that.

It's just a fly by night process.

Maddie Valley (22:43.33)
Yeah. Yeah. So it depends. It varies. But my experience was that I made that decision in May of 2021 that I can no longer live my life as Matt. In September, I finally went to a doctor who suggested that before I even start medication, that I start seeing a therapist.

I then went to three different therapists before I found somebody who had actually specialized in transgender healthcare, which that was a whole other thing is that, you know, not all people are, not all doctors are created equal. And then I was seeing that therapist for three months before I began taking medication. And so it wasn't,

Lindsay Hiken (23:20.051)
Mm.

Lindsay Hiken (23:29.223)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (23:41.634)
From May 2021, I didn't begin until December 2021. And this is after already having 31 years of these underlining feelings that I had no idea how to deal with or what was the cause or anything with no resources whatsoever. And so typically you're back into puberty again for a few...

Mike Ergo (23:55.527)
Hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (23:58.707)
you

Maddie Valley (24:09.906)
a few years and so your estrogen levels are going to be way higher than your testosterone levels, way higher than the average woman your age because you are going back down to puberty level where those estrogen levels are super high. And so underneath this, underneath it all, from my understanding is that you

your levels are gonna be more than theirs. And then there was the whole socially transitioning of things. So I had to get over all of those mental hurdles. I was already medically transitioning for what's 2025 now is that I was medically transitioning for almost four years before I went out for the first time in a dress and makeup.

Lindsay Hiken (24:50.867)
Mm.

Maddie Valley (25:08.865)
three nights ago for a pride event. I still am terrified to use the women's bathroom and and won't- just because of of being bullied or harassed or or worse- and then it wasn't until last year that I actually got my license changed my my- passport changed all of those things. But- in this four years- you know I could have gone for surgeries or things like that.

Lindsay Hiken (25:11.975)
Mm.

Maddie Valley (25:38.496)
unfortunately I don't I don't want to wait the year of recovery for bottom surgery so I might have to wait until after I ever get to Kona to to go because I can't take a year off from riding my bike. So it's a very long process so if somebody wants to use this as I'm gonna take this to to get a get an advantage in sports right is that.

Lindsay Hiken (25:48.338)
Mm.

Mike Ergo (25:49.533)
Hmm that'd be a long time

Lindsay Hiken (25:52.655)
Yeah, a year is a long time. A year is definitely.

Mike Ergo (25:55.901)
Yeah.

Maddie Valley (26:07.905)
governing bodies say that I can't even compete in the women's category unless I take three years off from competing in any sports. It doesn't even have to be triathlon. I have to take three years off. I have to undergo regular testing, provide doctor's notes, disclose all my medical documents, which I already do undergo regular medical testing because they want to make sure that my levels are all where they should be in order to give me medication.

Lindsay Hiken (26:19.635)
Hmm.

Maddie Valley (26:36.444)
But I have to disclose all that to strangers in order to compete in the women's category- and for me it's it's really not worth it I don't want to take time off I'm on a- timeline to get to Kona twelve races so- I'm- I don't want to take time off and- I'm still going to race for me I'm still gonna- I carry my flags I'm still going to go out there and go do it I don't really care.

Mike Ergo (26:50.409)
So, I'll stop.

Maddie Valley (27:06.706)
women or men, it doesn't matter or lose to women or men. That's not the point of this. It's a point of to go see how well I can perform and see if I'm still capable of doing it.

Mike Ergo (27:18.089)
Mm-hmm

Lindsay Hiken (27:20.701)
So currently you're racing in the men's category, is that what's happening? So you're at a disadvantage then, because you've changed your hormone levels pretty drastically. And so now you're at a big disadvantage, it sounds like.

Maddie Valley (27:24.287)
correct, which makes it

Maddie Valley (27:37.087)
I mean I still continually train- but my body doesn't regulate temperature as well anymore I have hot flashes. So I have. I have all of those same experiences which are fun and- but it hasn't it's not necessarily given me an advantage in the women's category

Lindsay Hiken (27:47.153)
Welcome.

Maddie Valley (28:05.952)
friends of mine that are in my age group- that are women. Beat me by like an hour so you know- I don't have any advantage there either- it makes race day really. Awkward when- I get out of my wetsuit at at the full distance and I have to choose which changing tent do I go into- because- I've got I've got boobs and I've got a

Lindsay Hiken (28:26.963)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (28:28.008)
Hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (28:33.17)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (28:35.455)
don't feel comfortable in the men's changing tent. I don't feel comfortable in the women's changing tent. And the volunteers are pointing you in the direction based on your swim cap and so or what you are or what you appear on the outside to be. And so that's been really awkward and a difficult hurdle to get over both mentally and physically is that what I've been doing is finding a porter potty and.

Lindsay Hiken (28:49.715)
you

Mike Ergo (28:49.725)
Hmm.

Maddie Valley (29:02.375)
stripping out of my wetsuit in a porter potty, which is not easy. And you stretch the imagination. And very gross, very gross. And then putting my head down and just running straight through the men's change tent to my bike. because it's just, that's the way it works. So.

Mike Ergo (29:06.729)
Oh no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (29:07.027)
No, not to mention gross.

Lindsay Hiken (29:22.641)
Yes, it's not safe. I mean, I will say about triathlon. It's one of the safer places for me as a black person. I don't know if your experiences like that. It seems like everyone's very focused on their own race. then at some point in the race, people are encouraging each other just to get through. Now, that may not be true for Kona qualifiers. You guys might just be with an intense group of people who

aren't paying attention at all. But those of us in the back, it's like, you know, there's just no, I'm racing with all white people. And I don't feel that sense of being a different during a race because there is sort of this. is that, have you found that or do you find that you're getting some pushback?

Mike Ergo (29:54.473)
you

Maddie Valley (30:11.087)
I have not received any pushback from the athletes that I'm racing with. I've gotten tons of love and support from the professional women, from age group women. It's been absolutely wonderful. That doesn't mean that I still don't have those fears and anxieties, but I have gotten indirect from volunteers that did not know.

Mike Ergo (30:15.017)
Hmm.

Mike Ergo (30:30.419)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (30:39.726)
and so they've talked negatively about trans athletes to me. And so I think that's just that fear isn't so much about an athlete, it's the spectators and the volunteers. And really the hardest part of triathlon, even just for cisgender.

you know- is the training aspect of it you know and so- the hardest part as a trans athletes training- is going to the pool because they are those same kind of triathletes that wanna cheer you on the whole way- it's a very different experience and- I go to the pool already ready to go jump in and as soon as I have to go to the bathroom that's it my workouts over so it if it's-

Mike Ergo (31:09.127)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (31:33.321)
If it's a 30 minute swim and that's it, if I can get the whole hour in, that's fantastic.

Maddie Valley (31:33.726)
If it's a 30 minute swim, then that's it. If I can get the whole hour in, that's fantastic. But there's one gender neutral bathroom and it's next to the kiddie pool. And so if kids are using it during the summer, then I'm out of luck. And I won't go into the men or women's lockers. I'll just go home and go to the bathroom there. And then riding, I live in rural, not rural, I live in Southern Georgia.

in the the rural farmlands where I try to do my long rides and you know, there's there's flags and all kinds of stuff that make me feel very uncomfortable to wanting to get a flat tire out there or or having to run into a bush to go to the bathroom, so it's it's a whole new level of fear and and running I've I've actually had to start running with a knife because

Mike Ergo (32:00.733)
you

Mike Ergo (32:11.315)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (32:26.547)
Mm.

Maddie Valley (32:27.101)
running in a sports bra and you know you get cat called initially and then you get a little bit closer and- they start. Given the transphobic slurs or comments and- start to fear a little bit for yourself because in all that training time you're out there typically by yourself and not with. Twenty five hundred of your craziest friends so- there is a lot less safety- for sure so. Yeah.

Mike Ergo (32:35.849)
Hmm.

Mike Ergo (32:47.337)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (32:53.811)
I feel for you in that and I've not been to southern Georgia, but I personally feel scared at the idea of as a black person training, especially solo in the south, you know, because there have been issues with that as well. And so you kind of have doubled, double the challenge there with being in a seemingly more.

religious and red state, a little bit of bias there that may not be as prevalent in other places. hearing your experience, you know, with the all of the logistics of trying to be an athlete, not being able to change, mean, change, you know, the idea that your swim is done early, you're in a porta potty at Ironman is incredibly

sad, feel very, I feel sad hearing that because this is supposed to be a stress reliever for her. You know, this is supposed to be a source of joy and it sounds like you've managed to find joy in it regardless of the challenges and I'm very impressed by that. And that shows some mental toughness that I'm not sure all of us have. What do you do? Yeah, isn't it?

Mike Ergo (33:53.779)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (34:17.773)
credible.

Lindsay Hiken (34:20.293)
Isn't it? I don't have that. would be I'm such a baby. I'd be like, fuck it. You know what I mean? Do you so? You know, a lot of athletes express having to sort of talk themselves through training and in a race and so just to be like, I'm.

Mike Ergo (34:20.627)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (34:41.767)
I'm out here, I wanna do this. is all of the positive, because the negative comes in very easily, it seems like. Do you have that same experience? And how do you get yourself, what does your positive talk look like?

Maddie Valley (34:53.242)
Yeah I'm sorry I always start with yeah so. I. I. Ironman Texas last year was really tough it was really really tough racing in Texas I was feeling so uncomfortable I had created a race kit that was the trans flag and I was very excited to race in it but once I arrived in the woodlands that excitement

Mike Ergo (35:13.116)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (35:21.816)
I had an all-time worst swim, even though on paper it wasn't, but mentally and physically it was the worst swim. then getting out and changing into my Transflag Tri-Kit in Texas filled me with so much. I was just like, don't know if I even want to continue this bike course. I don't want to do this race anymore.

Mike Ergo (35:30.014)
Hmm.

Maddie Valley (35:46.459)
course I really struggled with the whole idea of now I've got this huge target on my back. I'm not enjoying this at all the only thing that kept me going was if I don't complete this race I'll have to come back and do it again and I don't want to come back to Texas. And so on the run I typically run I started this in twenty twenty two when I stopped racing with for the Ironman Foundation I again I want to race for somebody and make it. Make it a worthwhile.

Mike Ergo (36:01.819)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Maddie Valley (36:16.347)
experience is that I started doing the last half marathon there with two trans flags. One I carry for myself and the other is for the person that's afraid to come out. And so I collected them at my special needs bag on the run and I ran to the first trash can and actually just threw them away because I was so afraid.

Mike Ergo (36:32.659)
Hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (36:43.027)
Mmm.

Maddie Valley (36:45.811)
of what people would see on the course, how people would react, because now there's no music blasting in my ears to block out any kind of negative things that people say. It's just dead silence out there with just your heavy breathing. And I really struggled when I crossed that finish line. I said, I don't want to do triathlon anymore. I don't want to coach. I don't want to race ever again. I don't want to carry those flags. I don't want to I don't want to be

Mike Ergo (36:48.611)
you

Mike Ergo (36:54.058)
Mm-hmm

Maddie Valley (37:15.245)
any I don't want to do this. So it mentally broke me for sure but a lot of a lot of those things that just keep me going is that is looking forward to carrying those flags it looks I look forward to those conversations I can have on the run because I'm not I'm not a fast runner anymore and I am that back of the pack person and so it's an opportunity to talk to people and so.

I looked forward to that and Texas did not give that to me and so I was done and- at Lake Placid though. Four months later. Complete turn around you know the- same same cats but I was everybody I met through the whole week was was excited for me they were excited about my story- they they were providing me nothing but love and support and then- out on the bike course there were.

Mike Ergo (37:57.001)
same kids but everybody I knew.

Maddie Valley (38:12.539)
flags all over the place- I had a couple of people come up to me and thank me on the run for carrying the flags and talk to me about it. And so it was a completely different experience and having that. Turn around from that was able to kind of keep me going because the only reason why I didn't retire after Texas was because I already dropped the eight

Mike Ergo (38:15.273)
Nice.

Mike Ergo (38:38.185)
I gotta go now.

Maddie Valley (38:40.89)
So yeah it's it's it's having having people that support and are showing support and being excited about what I'm doing is is definitely a huge a huge motivator for the race and- during training. I've it's it's I feel like at this point it's- if I don't put in the work I know I'm not gonna be successful so.

put in the work so you can have the best day possible when it comes to race day. So that's the only drive that I have moving forward.

Mike Ergo (39:12.318)
Mm-hmm.

Well, I love the comeback story of going back to Placid and having a totally different experience because you're right, you can get kicked down by a bad experience and want to quit. And what a shame that would be if that was your last race. And like that was the end of a sport and lifestyle you love because of, the reception or the feeling you had there. And there's, there's one thing, you know, we've got a lot of things in common, Matty, but

carrying the flag representing a cause or something else, something bigger than just ourself is, is a huge responsibility. mean, there's, we, you know, people like us could, could race for our causes and never tell anyone about it. Never just have that internally. But once you make that an external representation with a visual, like a flag, then you're right. The conversations come like, why are you carrying this flag? What is it about? No, the curiosity or

sometimes the hostility, right? Like I remember, carrying a flag at Ohio, you know, the, the U S flag and, was the iron man 70.3 Ohio. And some guy was really negative about that. Thought I was, I don't know what he thought it was about, but he, started yelling at me for carrying the, the U S flag. Yeah. Cause it's something about, you know, like the, you know, U S atrocities overseas and this and that I'm like,

I'm carrying this for my, my, my friend, my best friend who's from here, died in service and changed his tune, but still like people see something and it represents something else to them necessarily. So what I'm, what I'm saying in a long winded roundabout way, Maddie is just the much respect for, for carrying the flag, for carrying your cause, for externalizing your journey and inviting the conversation.

Maddie Valley (40:47.534)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Maddie Valley (41:11.501)
Thanks, I've had a lot of really great role models.

Mike Ergo (41:14.084)
Hahaha

Lindsay Hiken (41:14.451)
I am guilty of making some assumptions about the flag when I saw Mike on the Santa Rosa course, I didn't know Mike at all. I wasn't mad for like political reasons, but I was just like, okay, bro, like it's not enough, you know what I mean? To run like now you've got the flag, like, you know what I mean? More like showboating like, I look exactly, I could carry a flag, know, and so.

Maddie Valley (41:31.032)
No.

Mike Ergo (41:36.667)
Yeah, who's this dill though carrying this around?

Lindsay Hiken (41:44.293)
learning about the actual reason behind it is important, I think, for people to understand. And I'm really glad that you're doing this because I highly doubt that there are no other athletes that have the same kind of feelings that you've described in terms of fear to be who they really are. And that must be very, very encouraging for them to see you on the course with your flags.

Mike Ergo (42:05.447)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (42:13.097)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (42:13.285)
It must be like, okay, maybe I can be the person that I am, which would be, it's gotta be an amazing feeling.

Maddie Valley (42:23.702)
Yeah, I go ahead. I was just going to say is that, you know, I felt like there was no role models growing up and nobody that looked like me or anything like that, that was a positive role model. And so I definitely want to show people that it's possible and you can stay here. You don't have to just end it.

Lindsay Hiken (42:23.771)
So, no, go ahead.

Maddie Valley (42:52.608)
because you can't, you know, there is a life on the other side of this. Which I'm sure you can relate to is that I saw the Triathlete Magazine had posted on Instagram, they were like, why inclusion matters? And it's like, you know, if you don't see people that look like you and have those same kind of experiences, why would you even do it? Why would there's no reason to do something if...

if you don't see people that look like you and know what you're going through.

Lindsay Hiken (43:26.927)
Hopefully you'll have the experience that I have, is when you see the like one other, when I see one or two other black triathlete, the two of us that are on the course, it's just like, hey, we're out here doing some white shit. It's fun. White people know how to have fun. So I'm hoping at some point you see, you know, another trans athlete out there like, hey, look, we're doing some straight bullshit.

Mike Ergo (43:48.167)
Dap them up, yeah.

Maddie Valley (43:49.397)
Yes.

Lindsay Hiken (43:54.523)
Mike, so what other questions do you have or thoughts?

Mike Ergo (43:58.525)
You know, I think this is such, we, I'd like to know more about your story, Matty, and go back and forward. And so I think this warrants, you know, talking again, if you're up for it on the show in the very near future. But what I will say now before we close up is that, you know,

I've really appreciated following your posts on Instagram, especially, and learning about, your journey and what you've gone through. Cause I mean, I hope we shattered the myth or illusion that this, this is a journey out of convenience, right? Cause it seems anything, but right. The, the, the amount of risks and steps you've taken to be who you really are is tremendous, tremendous amount of effort and courage that it's involved. So I appreciate you coming.

you know, to the show and talking about these things and, and being that role model for people who might be feeling the same, but might not have the ability or, or circumstances or whatever to come out and be themselves. So I want to thank you for all that.

Maddie Valley (45:10.934)
Yeah, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed chatting with both of you.

Lindsay Hiken (45:15.283)
Mm hmm. I just loved it. think it's such an important conversation and also, you know, just in general, you're very charismatic. So that's that's fun. And I think, you know, I know people that listen to the show that are not not angry at the trans community by any stretch of the imagination, but are definitely like, I feel uncomfortable. I don't know what this is kind of that. And they're good people. And but there's just a lack of.

Mike Ergo (45:15.784)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (45:39.997)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (45:44.827)
understanding and it's hard you know I think in some ways to put yourself in the shoes of someone like yourself because how could how could someone who doesn't feel that they're the wrong gender from birth understand what that feels like I mean it's just such a it would be such a hard feeling for me to try to generate from it would be impossible for me because I'm fine with with what I am but

I think the best that can happen is the explanations and why there shouldn't be fear on the part of people who are not, you know, not trans. And so I'm excited for our listeners to hear this and hear your message because I think it's going to remove some of the just confusion on the part of people who are, you know, genuinely good people. just don't know what, I don't know what's what, I think.

Mike Ergo (46:25.949)
Yeah.

Mike Ergo (46:33.757)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (46:39.635)
Yeah, yeah, fear of the unknown.

Lindsay Hiken (46:42.803)
Yes. And that that thing of like, you're not like me, there's a lot of tribalism in our society right now. I think it's like we're here, we're at the side where you're at that side, we can't meet in the middle, we can't get along, we can't. And I think anybody who's trying to do what you're doing and put themselves out there to break some of that tribalism is just super brave and inspirational. So thanks for coming on.

Mike Ergo (46:50.345)
Mm-hmm.

Mike Ergo (47:07.657)
Agreed. Agreed. Yeah.

Maddie Valley (47:07.894)
Thank you. Thanks.

Yeah, thanks for having me. It was so great to see both of you and catch up. And thank you. I really enjoyed this.

Mike Ergo (47:17.533)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (47:19.537)
Yeah. Yeah. So when's your next race?

Mike Ergo (47:20.541)
Yeah.

Maddie Valley (47:22.742)
I am done racing triathlons for the year. I'm terrified of what's in the water in the south here, so I won't be open water swimming. know, alligator, snakes, amoebas, all those fun things. So just I just have a half marathon in November and then I'm undecided about a triathlon for next year.

Mike Ergo (47:32.137)
So yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (47:35.379)
Ugh.

Lindsay Hiken (47:44.069)
Okay, so are you new to the South? Did you move to the South?

Mike Ergo (47:44.477)
Mm-hmm.

Maddie Valley (47:48.213)
I grew up in Florida, I've been living out West for the last decade, California and Arizona, Utah, Washington and Alaska. so where, you know, I had no problem getting in the water, but now I'm afraid.

Lindsay Hiken (47:54.728)
okay.

Lindsay Hiken (48:00.616)
Wow.

Right. Yeah, that's legitimate. That's a legitimate. Alligators no are a no for me. Sharks are also a no though, so you know. It's a lot of no's for me. All right, well I think it'd be great and worthwhile having you on again to just talk through this a little bit more, especially if we have like listener feedback to kind of answer some of the questions and things that people have, if that's okay with you.

Mike Ergo (48:05.342)
Yeah.

Maddie Valley (48:10.996)
Yeah. Sharks are no. Yes.

Mike Ergo (48:13.907)
Hahaha

Maddie Valley (48:30.866)
Yeah, yeah, that would be great. Thank you.

Lindsay Hiken (48:33.011)
Well, I think we did it. What do you think? Okay.

Mike Ergo (48:38.397)
Yeah. Excited for, for talking this out further and having you back, Maddie. And just wanted to thank you again for having the courage to talk about your, your own journey and put your heart out there and, and put your life out there, for other people to hear about. So thank you.

Maddie Valley (48:56.404)
Thanks. you. Like I said, I've had some good role models.

Lindsay Hiken (49:01.075)
That's awesome. That's good. That's good to know. So listeners, if you don't mind.

please go to the podcast app that you're using and subscribe to our episode. And then if you can hit the auto download button, that would be very, very good for us. we can't tell who's listening unless they download the episode. That's basically what it is. And, it's, it helps us promote the podcast. And as we've demonstrated on this episode, it's, it's, this podcast is, can be helpful to someone who you may not know that it's helpful to. So like,

subscribe, download and if you want to check it out on YouTube, we now have all of our episodes up on YouTube. Okay, and we will see you next week. Bye.

Mike Ergo (49:51.069)
Yes, bye.

Maddie Valley (49:52.926)
Bye.