
Ginger and Chocolate
The Ginger and Chocolate Pod is just two regular people talking about their experiences with mental health challenges, physical health and wellness, and endurance sports training. Co-hosts Lindsay and Mike interview athletes and subject matter experts.
Ginger and Chocolate
Self-Judgement in Sport
Summary
In this episode of the Ginger and Chocolate podcast, hosts Lindsay Hiken and Mike Ergo delve into the themes of self-judgment, guilt, and identity in the context of endurance training. They explore how these feelings can impact performance and the importance of reframing one's relationship with athletic pursuits. The conversation emphasizes the significance of understanding personal standards, the value of progress over perfection, and the role of community in fostering inspiration rather than comparison. In this conversation, Lindsay Hiken and Mike Ergo explore the emotional landscape of endurance sports, discussing how experiences in ultra running can mirror life's challenges. They delve into the concepts of guilt, growth, and the importance of sharing experiences to break free from self-imposed echo chambers. The discussion emphasizes the power of humor, mindfulness, and journaling as tools for self-reflection and emotional resilience.
Sound Bites
- "This too shall pass."
- "Can we use guilt to help us grow?"
- "We can find joy through this."
- "You win some, you lose some."
- "We swam. We didn't die."
- "What did I show up for today?"
- "I get to be here right now."
- "I'm not owed this moment."
Keywords
self-judgment, guilt, imposter syndrome, endurance training, identity, performance, standards, self-worth, progress, mental health, ultra running, mental health, guilt, growth, echo chamber, self-reflection, humor, gratitude, endurance sports, emotional resilience
Takeaways
- Self-judgment often stems from identity tied to performance.
- Comparison to others can lead to negative self-talk.
- Identifying the source of self-judgment is crucial for growth.
- Reframing performance as a privilege can alleviate guilt.
- Understanding whose standards we are trying to meet is important.
- Progress, not perfection, should be the goal in training.
- Past experiences can inform how we handle current challenges.
- Emotional connection to our experiences is key to overcoming guilt.
- Mindfulness and self-reflection can help manage feelings of inadequacy.
- Community support can inspire rather than discourage. Past experiences can guide us through tough times.
- Guilt can be a catalyst for personal growth.
- Talking about feelings can normalize experiences.
- Humor can help alleviate stress in challenging situations.
- Journaling can provide clarity and insight into emotions.
- Recognizing fleeting emotions can change our relationship with them.
- Sharing experiences with others can reduce feelings of isolation.
- Mindfulness and gratitude can enhance our physical activities.
- Finding joy in the journey is essential for endurance athletes.
- It's important to acknowledge and name our feelings.
Thanks for listening to the Ginger and Chocolate Podcast. Check out our website at gingerandchocolate.com to get in touch with us. Follow us on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram @ginger_and_chocolate_podcast; and please subscribe to the show and select automatic downloads on your podcast app.
Lindsay Hiken (00:01.462)
Hello, welcome to the Ginger and Chocolate podcast. I'm your co-host, Lindsay, along with Mike. Hey, Mike.
Mike Ergo (00:08.123)
Hey, what's up, Lindsay? How you doing?
Lindsay Hiken (00:12.568)
doing pretty well. So today we are going to talk about self judgment and guilt and all those things that come up imposter syndrome when you are training for an endurance event. So we're going to get deep into that. But first, let's get a training update for you from you. How's the marathon training going?
Mike Ergo (00:35.694)
It's coming along. We're doing slow, short runs right now because I'm really trying to be conservative about not going out of the gate too fast. know, so marathons in October and I haven't ran consistently for a while, so I'm putting a lot of effort into just easing into it. You know, I'm mostly lifting and then doing a little running too.
So yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm excited. I'm motivated. I'm really looking forward to it. So with the differences this time is like I towards the end of like my, my main Ironman stint was I was racing and training more out of, not out of guilt, but it's like something I should do versus being, you know, inspired to do it. Cause I just, know,
put about 10 years or eight years into it and got tired of it after a little while. Got kind of a little burned out. Too much of a good thing, I think.
Lindsay Hiken (01:43.404)
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I relate to that because I feel like I'm in the same place. Did my first triathlon in 2010. And right now I'm, you know, just taking a little break from it. But I am doing some endurance training because I'm going to do a big gravel riding camp. I think I mentioned that here before.
Mike Ergo (01:54.887)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (02:08.464)
Yes.
Lindsay Hiken (02:10.574)
I'm so excited. Thank you. I so I've been doing a bunch of gravel riding and I'm also doing the strength training we talked about, I think, two episodes ago with Diana. And, you know, so far so good. I'm having some hip issues, which, you know, had cropped up earlier this year as well. So I'm just sort of like you. Trying to.
Mike Ergo (02:13.414)
I'm excited for you.
Mike Ergo (02:26.022)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (02:40.268)
train but also not get so crazy that I injure myself before the event.
Mike Ergo (02:45.594)
Yeah, yeah, it's important because I think you know got to be mindful of where you are not where you have been.
Lindsay Hiken (02:57.332)
That's key. And it's kind of nice to do a single event, right, instead of doing the multi-sport. Yeah, that's good. That's really good. OK, well, let's see. Do you want to get into our main set?
Mike Ergo (03:03.932)
Uh-huh.
Mike Ergo (03:16.828)
Yeah, let's get into it. Let's get into it.
Lindsay Hiken (03:19.374)
All right. One thing I did was I, I looked up sort of what AI said about, you know, self judgment and guilt and training and how that can affect performance. And the first thing it said is, you know, if you're a high achiever, if you're a perfectionist,
Mike Ergo (03:34.556)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (03:43.89)
you
Lindsay Hiken (03:46.004)
And if you are someone who has a strong sense of identity tied to performance that you are sort of, you know, at risk for the extra self judgment and the guilt for non performing. So I don't know if you can relate to that, but I definitely do.
Mike Ergo (03:51.538)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (04:04.466)
think what I can relate to is not the performance in terms of time or placing, but just the identity of for a while I was Mike the Ironman guy, Mike the triathlon guy. And that was my identity was wrapped into that. So if I didn't have a race or two or three for the calendar year, I was wasn't sure who I was. And so that that was the big identity right there. So
Lindsay Hiken (04:30.094)
Mm.
Mike Ergo (04:33.978)
struggle with that for a couple of years after.
Lindsay Hiken (04:37.55)
Same. We are on the same page today. So we both talked about, you know, identity. But the first thing that I brought up is, which I think is a good point, is to identify the source of self judgment. So that can be identity, obviously. You know, but.
Mike Ergo (04:41.617)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, exactly.
Lindsay Hiken (05:05.087)
Where are the real, what's the real source of self judgment in this? It says, you know, where are the feelings coming from? For example, unmet expectation, comparison to others, which is my big one. And then whose standards are you trying to meet? And then what would you say to a friend in your situation? So that's the first kind of questions they ask and.
For me, the comparison to others is a huge one. And I'm on a team with really high achievers that are athletically talented, more so than I am. And so those women are going to Kona. They're qualifying for Kona that are in my age group. So I can't be like, that's a 30-year-old. It's like the.
Mike Ergo (05:51.502)
Right, right. It's just not if it's a when.
Mike Ergo (05:57.274)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. huh.
Lindsay Hiken (05:59.424)
This woman is 54 and she's doing like a sub 11 hour iron man. Right. And yet it's like intellectual knowledge doesn't always help. Change the feelings. Yeah.
Mike Ergo (06:04.409)
Insane.
Mike Ergo (06:13.242)
Mm-hmm. No, it doesn't. You're right. Like, just like, you can know it's probably not good to eat ice cream every single day, but it doesn't change the feeling when you get that craving. Or for red vines, right?
Lindsay Hiken (06:27.83)
Well, I mean, I'm going to be honest and telling myself a little bit, which is I've been eating mint chip ice cream every day for like a good month, five weeks.
Mike Ergo (06:42.738)
That's good stuff. That's good stuff though. Yeah. But you know, exactly. But to your point is like, you can know something intellectually, but it's the feeling still happened. And the comparison is real too. When you think about, um, it, it, it's a good thing in some ways to have the comparison, but it's, it's a, I don't know that razor's edge between comparing yourself negatively to other people or
being inspired by other people around you to like to up your game, right?
Lindsay Hiken (07:15.054)
Yeah, when is that that you're right, that is the time to really find and self reflect on when are your thoughts inspirational from other people or when are they generating negative self talk and
Mike Ergo (07:22.565)
Uh-uh.
Mike Ergo (07:30.971)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (07:38.806)
I definitely find that I, so I'll just back up and say for me and then I'd like to hear what you, how you find it, but.
what the same people on my team that I compare to and that I can't that I fall short are the same people who inspire me. But what happens for me is I'll take a step back from the team and just start doing my own workouts because I'm like, you know, fuck this. And then I'll miss everybody and I'll see what they're doing on, Strava. And I'll be like, I just miss them. I just want to be around them. I don't care what you know, how much quote unquote better they are than me at triathlon.
Mike Ergo (07:55.846)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (08:17.966)
And so I'll go back to team workouts and then I'll have a month where they just ride away from me every fricking Saturday morning, you know, and it's like within the first 20 minutes of the ride. I'm back with, you know, the three other women who also aren't performing at that same level, but so.
Mike Ergo (08:28.54)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Lindsay Hiken (08:41.462)
It's sort of like when they're in my face and I can physically see them, I start to become less inspired by them and more comparing and feeling competitive and feeling like I'm falling short. And when I don't see them and I see them on Strava, I feel inspired by them, which is a really bizarre way to look at it. But that's what's happening for me.
Mike Ergo (08:53.586)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (09:03.1)
Well, I think there's a couple of things going on for people like us and there's the comparison. it can also be to our own life situation, you know, the thought of mortality and the thought of getting older and thought of like, you know, am I doing enough and all the common fears and anxieties people have is like, am I enough who I am? Right. And then
Lindsay Hiken (09:17.422)
Mm.
Lindsay Hiken (09:27.756)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mike Ergo (09:31.474)
it's a tough one because you know it's like is my identity wrapped up in my achievement of how many finisher medals I have from different races or how many times I've done something or podiumed or whatever it is and then that I think will come out no matter who you are and I think that when that hits me I start thinking okay
Lindsay Hiken (09:40.27)
Mm.
Lindsay Hiken (09:52.152)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (09:57.4)
Who am I? Is my identity wrapped up just in the sport? Because that can be taken away. You know, an injury, a sickness, life circumstance, that can be taken away. And can I race in such a way that I can draw from inspiration and not from guilt or not from I need to do this or else I'm not good enough.
Lindsay Hiken (10:05.656)
Yeah.
Lindsay Hiken (10:18.67)
Right, right, that makes total sense.
Mike Ergo (10:19.46)
So yeah, it ties up to something bigger for me too because, go ahead.
Lindsay Hiken (10:27.478)
No, no, no, I want to hear what you're I was going to ask you a question. So go for it.
Mike Ergo (10:29.874)
Yeah, it's a it's the same thing with you know, it's my work to veterans it's it's been inspiring but it's also a theme in my life has been survivors guilt, right? If I don't do this, I'm letting people down, you know, and and I've had to take a serious look at this, you know, I've done my own, you know, therapy and work with a professional.
Lindsay Hiken (10:44.813)
Hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (10:49.74)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (10:59.01)
And can I operate in such a way that I'm not doing it out of guilt, or this kind of impending doom, but can I be inspired to help people? So I think I bring that up because we can approach racing and training in the same way. You know, there's the mundane day to day. I don't feel like getting up and doing this that everyone's going to face because motivation only lasts so long and discipline is really the, the,
good way to operate doing stuff, even when you don't feel like it, if you know it's good for you, but the guilt and inspiration, I think we can change that by our self talk, examining ourselves, meditating, letting those thoughts air out, and then just having a strong why, you know, recommitting to that and jumping into it.
Lindsay Hiken (11:33.208)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (11:51.318)
Yeah, that's a good point. The strong why is is so so important because you know, the the next question that that comes up on this and I'd like to hear what you think about this, but it says, whose standards are you trying to meet? And so if you have a why sort of that setting the standard otherwise, whose standards are you trying to meet? How do you how do you?
Mike Ergo (12:09.468)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (12:17.392)
Yeah.
Lindsay Hiken (12:19.874)
How do you feel about that? What do you struggle with in terms of standards?
Mike Ergo (12:26.61)
I think I mean, I see the high achievers, you know, especially when I was, you know, at a master swim team, seeing people who were great athletes, and just maybe high performers and in the pool, and maybe, you know, went to nationals or did this in college, and then it'll bring me back to, well, I didn't.
play sports and call it. I didn't have a sport in college. I didn't graduate high school. didn't have any athletic career in high school. And then it brings me back to my past failures. And I started thinking like, man, I'm a piece of crap for not being a high achiever then. it's interesting because I've achieved
Lindsay Hiken (13:11.662)
Hmm.
Mike Ergo (13:20.304)
I'm proud of the things I've achieved and I like the path I took, you know, through the military and then coming back and then getting into enduring sports after active addiction. But that comparison to other people and only looking at the good parts and trying to meet someone else's standards is real. And if you do that, then you'll never be good enough because you're not that person and you're, different. And it's.
Lindsay Hiken (13:44.16)
Right, right.
Mike Ergo (13:49.806)
it's hard because you miss the big context of, wow, I have a body that's allowing me to do what it's allowing me to do when there are people who are not able to, or maybe just don't have that connection with an endurance sports like we do and understand the benefits of it. And, and, you know, there's people who don't have the resources to pay for races or go to different localities. And so not taking joy in other people's misfortunes, but
Lindsay Hiken (13:58.829)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (14:15.106)
Right.
Mike Ergo (14:19.826)
realizing that we have a privilege to do this and that changes it because then we can operate from like, I have opportunity or to do what I do. I have availability and being grateful for that.
Lindsay Hiken (14:21.1)
Right.
Lindsay Hiken (14:34.944)
Yeah, yeah, I like framing it that way. The second section that was brought up on my research was to one thing one way to deal with, you know, the guilt and self judgment is to reframe your relationship with performance. And so that's kind of where you went with that. It's like, this is a privilege, actually. And it's very easy to forget that.
Mike Ergo (14:54.182)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (15:02.004)
It's easy for me to forget that this is a hobby too. You know, I'm not actually getting paid for this. And so.
Mike Ergo (15:02.32)
Yeah.
Mike Ergo (15:08.058)
Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Yeah, getting wrapped up in the Z.
Lindsay Hiken (15:15.438)
Yeah, performance does not equal self-worth. Yeah. Go ahead.
Mike Ergo (15:20.324)
No, no, exactly. And it's just, and I think some of it, you know, like, I have a friend who's, who's very athletically gifted and he actually set the world record. can, it's in Guinness book of world records for the most half iron mans in a year. We'll get them on the show, but I think he did like 26.
Lindsay Hiken (15:44.002)
Yeah.
Holy shit.
Mike Ergo (15:48.154)
And he ran a marathon because that wasn't enough yet. And he's fast, you know? So I was like, well, he's a Marine too. If he's a Marine, I'm a Marine. I should be able to do that. And, I, my body's not there. My body's not there. And, and then I started thinking, okay, you know, going back into the inspiration, I can compare myself to someone else and try to meet his standards all day long and just feel bad about.
that I'm not there, you know, just like, you know, you feel bad about you're not at the finish line if you're still racing and you think about the finish line the whole time, think about something or somewhere you're not is an easy way to get disheartened. But then I think, uh, yeah, I've had a few injuries and my body is what it is. And I have, I've gone from someone who couldn't run a few miles because I was so out of shape to someone who's
Lindsay Hiken (16:32.547)
Yes.
Mike Ergo (16:47.154)
You know, finished a few Ironman triathlons and done some open water swims of significant distance and.
has been able to be part of a, just a wonderful sport of triathlon and trail racing and open water swimming. And then I started thinking, man, what, what if I hadn't found this? Where would I be? don't know. But I'm, I, and then I started thinking of the gratitude of being here and it's like, man, like I got to meet you and see through this sport. Right. Now we have this podcast together. I've got to meet all these people that are
Lindsay Hiken (17:11.96)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (17:20.363)
Yeah. That's crazy to me.
Mike Ergo (17:24.688)
Right? Even though, right? Our lives intersected because of the sport.
Lindsay Hiken (17:33.729)
I think so in in in a we have a saying progress not perfection. And that just means you know in your program you know continue to make progress. You don't have to do it perfectly. You don't need to do the steps perfectly. The only thing you should do perfectly is to the extent you can not pick up drugs and alcohol you know.
Mike Ergo (17:45.701)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (18:02.439)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (18:02.646)
Outside of that, all the other bag of crap that comes with having a mental health challenge is not there. You don't have to perfectly overcome that, perfectly address that, it's progress. And in terms of training,
if I can remember it's progress, not perfection. And I can take areas where I may have had a quote unquote failure and use that as data instead of as a means of flocking myself or being a bad person or whatever, however I frame it, you know. I can make progress, right? I can't make progress if I'm like, I'm a piece of crap because I didn't finish this race or I didn't show up for this race even.
Mike Ergo (18:42.746)
Yeah. Right. Right.
Lindsay Hiken (18:57.138)
You know, but more like, OK, why did I not show up for this race? That just happened with Wildflower for me. I signed up. My team was it was a team race. Everyone's going. And. I got injured, but then I was going to heal in time to do the race. But during the injury, I realized I wasn't even upset. At the thought of not being able to go. And. This time, instead of.
looking at it as a failure on my part, like what's wrong with you? Why don't you want to go do this race? You need to get, you need to just go get it done. I thought, why is it? don't care. And that's when I came to the realization, like right now, racing triathlon is not something that's giving me joy. And so the whole point of this was joy, stress relief, et cetera. and
Mike Ergo (19:39.847)
Yeah.
Mike Ergo (19:55.314)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (19:56.664)
That's when I was able to pivot away and go, well, what do I want to do? Well, I want to gravel ride. That's what I want to do. And so that's what I'm doing now. And it feels much better.
Mike Ergo (20:09.776)
That's, I love that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think there's a lot of leftover stuff, baggage we carry around and kind of in our own histories, ancient thoughts of self-worth being tied into performance and how we do and what we think we should be doing, how we should feel. And so for me, the question becomes, okay, I can know it like in my head of don't let my identity get
caught up in achievement. But then the question is, how do we feel it? Right? How do you actually feel it and not just know it? Because knowing something but not feeling it is, is I don't think it's the whole thing. I think that the key is to actually connect with it too on an emotional level. And what helped me is, I've been able to use this powerful experience I had, I had this epiphany, I was training up for this,
Lindsay Hiken (20:49.9)
Right.
Mike Ergo (21:09.778)
24 hour endurance event called go rock heavy. And so you basically you're led by former army special forces guys who have you carry logs and other people and do like a mini mini version of like what their selection for special forces and you wear your backpack with you know, 40 to 60 pounds in it and it's long, it's miserable.
Lindsay Hiken (21:13.454)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (21:37.5)
But I wanted to do it. as I kept getting closer and closer to it, I kept having these, I was having panic attacks. I was having a lot of anxiety around it and I was going to quit. And then I was meditating and I realized I had this epiphany where I was like, this is leftover stuff from war. And once I realized this was leftover stuff from war, said, okay. It put the feelings in context and then I didn't have to identify with them.
Lindsay Hiken (21:48.91)
Mm.
Lindsay Hiken (21:55.95)
Mmm.
Mike Ergo (22:07.538)
I didn't have to, to take them in and get wrapped up in them. I could have a little bit of separation and distance and see like, okay, that's leftover war stuff. So when it happens, it's not pleasant, but it doesn't spiral out of control now because I'm not grabbing onto it. And the same thing happens with when I have feelings of, I should have been doing triathlons this whole time, you know, during my break from it, or I should be doing this. I should be doing that. That's leftover stuff from growing up.
Lindsay Hiken (22:14.734)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (22:34.392)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (22:37.274)
And when I can realize that, then I can say, OK, let me step back from that now. And I'm able to see it and not be immersed in it, just like we witness our thoughts but not be wrapped up in it.
Lindsay Hiken (22:38.008)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (22:45.954)
Right.
Lindsay Hiken (22:50.466)
Hmm, I like that. think using big past experiences like that can definitely change the way that you view life in general and challenges in life. That's something that
Mike Ergo (22:52.806)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (23:11.65)
The guest, Jeff MacGregor that we had on last week talked about in ultra running, know, in that hundred mile, in that hundred miles of running, you're gonna have every feeling, every emotion, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna feel like.
Mike Ergo (23:15.708)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (23:27.686)
Yeah, uh-huh.
Lindsay Hiken (23:31.106)
my god, this is frickin amazing. He talked about and I think everyone if you if you're listening to this, please go back and you haven't listened to last week's episode, please go back and listen to it. Because his Jeff does a great job of relating what he learns in ultra running to his life and how he deals with, you know, challenges in his life. But he uses a couple things. One is past experience. And
And the other is just the knowledge that this too shall pass whatever feeling. So, you know, those first 40 miles or something are always great for him. And he's like, this is amazing. And I'm so stoked. And then it's like, here comes the pain cave, you not quite as happy. And. But instead of giving up, instead of going, I can't.
Mike Ergo (24:04.56)
Yes.
Mike Ergo (24:14.055)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (24:18.513)
Yeah.
Lindsay Hiken (24:28.014)
can't move on, I'm stuck. Sort of like, well, what happened last time I ran an ultra? I kept going during this period of a dark period mentally or physically and saying like, this too shall pass. And I know that because it's done it before. in life, everything that you experience is fleeting.
Mike Ergo (24:36.294)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (24:48.348)
Yes.
Lindsay Hiken (24:56.458)
every experience, good experiences, bad experiences, they're all fleeting. And so that's true in life, that's true in training, I think.
Mike Ergo (24:57.18)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (25:07.772)
Yeah.
Lindsay Hiken (25:11.854)
Can we use guilt?
Lindsay Hiken (25:17.134)
to help us grow? That's a question I have for you. Can we use guilt to help us grow and expand?
Mike Ergo (25:26.854)
I think we can, I think every feeling we have is a catalyst to change if we are able to see it that way. Because I'll use an example is, the way I see layers of feelings surrounding grief, for example, is, know, on the top might be numbness of you, if you've found yourself detaching and then there's the anger below that. And then there's the sadness and hurt and fear.
and below all that I no longer see that as the bottom. The bottom is actually a good place to be because underneath all of that is connection and joy and love and when you can bust through the grief and the hurt and the unpleasant feelings you can get to the love. think grief or excuse me guilt you can use the same way.
because you can see that, okay, this is not the place I end up. This is just a catalyst to get to where I need to be. Cause if you look at the guilt, then you can say, okay, how do I springboard from this guilt to inspiration? How, how do I flip that and see the same thing except I, I've, I can find inspiration and not ways to beat myself down, but it takes that recognition and it takes, you know, I like to look at things as waves, you know, like this.
two shall pass. The way I visualize that as a wave and especially if it's a difficult emotion to deal with like guilt, I'll say, where am I on this wave? Am I still ramping up? Am I at the crest? Am I at the top? Am I coming back down? But once I know it's a wave and that this two shall pass, I know that if I simply keep breathing, keep going, that the feeling will subside when it's ready and that it's not going to be
I don't have to catastrophize and say that it's going to stick and it's going to be like this intense for this long because it'll pass.
Lindsay Hiken (27:21.07)
Hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (27:28.814)
Mm hmm. Right, right. I love the visualization of waves because I live near the ocean and I can picture them coming up on the beach and then receding and half moon bay. The waves are fairly large, so I can relate to that. Just as an aside, whenever I think about the ocean, I immediately think about sharks, though. So I might need another visual.
Mike Ergo (27:35.804)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mike Ergo (27:44.711)
Yeah.
Mike Ergo (27:53.102)
Yeah
Lindsay Hiken (27:58.866)
And we just had a totally off topic, but there's a lot of open water swimmers in Half Moon Bay. And then just north of us in Monterra, what I mean just north, I'm talking like three miles north. So not really north, pretty much part of the same area that we just recently had Great White hanging out.
Mike Ergo (27:59.664)
Yeah.
Mike Ergo (28:13.308)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (28:22.462)
And there was a big dead whale on the beach with a huge chunk out of it. So Great White just took a little snack. then the Great White was spotted just kind of hanging out in this little cove area.
Mike Ergo (28:31.25)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (28:41.606)
Ha ha ha ha.
Lindsay Hiken (28:45.504)
And then three miles south of that, people are like, I'm swimming ocean water. And they're like, well, this is I'm swimming at the jetty. my thought is, does the shark go? I don't go by the Half Moon Bay jetty. Or does the shark just go where the fuck it wants to go? That's just my question. So.
Mike Ergo (28:53.745)
Yeah.
Mike Ergo (28:59.727)
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, I think it's the latter. I think it's the latter.
Lindsay Hiken (29:10.542)
Yes, a comedian, think Dave Chappelle or Chris Rock are one of the exactly one of these comedians said, if a chicken's hanging out in my yard, you're in my house. There's a good chance you're going to be my meal. And when we get in the water, you know, we're in the shark's backyard. know. But back to our topic.
Mike Ergo (29:12.562)
wherever it wants to go.
Mike Ergo (29:30.321)
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Mike Ergo (29:37.84)
Hahaha
Lindsay Hiken (29:39.166)
One of the things that was suggested is to get out of the echo chamber. And I like that idea because I've heard of that thought in relation to current events and news, know, that we're because of social media and the way our news is delivered to us now through an algorithm. Excuse me, you end up in sort of an echo chamber of
Mike Ergo (29:49.808)
Ahem.
Lindsay Hiken (30:07.918)
hearing what, you know, something that's in line with your beliefs. And the thought of that is, in terms of training is that you yourself are the echo chamber, that you are the one who's creating that for yourself, that loop. And, and that talking to someone externally about what you're going through is a potential route out of out of that echo chamber.
Mike Ergo (30:17.522)
you
Mike Ergo (30:39.354)
And what does that look like? How does one do that?
Lindsay Hiken (30:45.838)
Good question. I think a couple of things. Like for example, talking with you about it on this show is helpful for me to see to normalize my experience in relation to other people. And sometimes when you're saying things out loud, it takes some of the strength out of them. so, and I'm not, I'm.
Mike Ergo (30:57.906)
huh.
Mike Ergo (31:08.55)
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I agree. Hey, that's my whole trade, right?
Lindsay Hiken (31:15.988)
Yes, exactly. That's true. That is your whole trade. Maybe you should open up a line of talking to endurance athletes, you know, therapy, a endurance athlete.
Mike Ergo (31:19.29)
Yeah, it's a it's it's
Mike Ergo (31:27.374)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's a way to demystify a lot of stuff because when it's just in our head, it might not be a fully formed thought, but it might be a feeling with a couple thought strings attached to it. But when we we say it out loud, we can either see the fallacies, you know, what's what's what's wrong with that train of logic, or we can laugh about it, or we can find that as a stepping stone to something else and
Lindsay Hiken (31:48.942)
Hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (31:54.35)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (31:57.202)
I just, um, maybe the image of a stepping stone is, is well, it's shark free too, but it's also a, can be helpful one because you know, if we get sucked up in a certain feeling like guilt or fear or sadness, then, then it feels like it's a pit of quicksand. But if we see it as a stepping stone instead and say like, Oh, I can find joy through this. This is a catalyst for me. Grief has been that catalyst to
Lindsay Hiken (31:58.702)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (32:05.016)
Thank
Mike Ergo (32:27.258)
to joy because it connects to my heart and I know that I care that I love because I'm hurting because I love so I can connect to it that way and we can find the same way through our sport I think is by just spending some time letting those feelings air out and not being afraid of them but also not being immersed or ruminating or getting stuck with them and just seeing them for what they are is fleeting sensations that we can experience and not die.
Lindsay Hiken (32:34.974)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (32:55.928)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (32:56.746)
and not get stuck in. Say okay if this is a feeling, if I see it as a catalyst to joy then I can say good this is I'm on the way instead of no not this I'm going be stuck in this forever. It changes the relationship we have with that.
Lindsay Hiken (33:12.194)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (33:17.538)
Yeah, that totally makes 100 % sense to me. I think that talking about it with another person, which will right size the problem for me, this is true in all areas of my life. Definitely use it as a tool with my sobriety to right size. So I'll go to a meeting and I'll speak about whatever's bothering me.
Mike Ergo (33:31.889)
Mm-hmm.
Mike Ergo (33:43.312)
Yes.
Lindsay Hiken (33:47.592)
And saying it out loud definitely is like, maybe this isn't the life ending problem that I thought it was. I've been sharing a lot lately about feeling resentment towards others. And
Mike Ergo (33:55.579)
Yeah.
Lindsay Hiken (34:06.038)
you know, when I say it out loud, I'm like, this is some petty shit. I'm not going to die. I'm actually not going to die from this. And so, you know, so that's that's good. And then the other piece of it is, think getting out of the echo chamber is normalizing imperfection through other people's stories, you know, to go, it's not just me. Other people feel
Mike Ergo (34:27.441)
huh.
Lindsay Hiken (34:34.168)
self judgment and guilt over their training. That definitely is a tool.
Mike Ergo (34:36.988)
Yeah.
Mike Ergo (34:41.168)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know what? go ahead. No, I want you to finish.
Lindsay Hiken (34:48.49)
No, no, that was it. That was it. End of my sentence.
Mike Ergo (34:50.362)
Okay. What, what I found really helps me is if I can find someone else who can, who can interject, humor in a difficult situation. I'm thinking back, if we go back to this whole go-rock endurance event, you know, part of the thing I remember was that you'd have to get to certain checkpoints at certain times and they make them really hard to get to. And if you don't, you get punished and you do pushups and sit ups and
et cetera, et cetera. It's just part of the game. Yeah, and I know I paid for this too. But I was getting wrapped up in the fact that we weren't going to make this checkpoint in time. And I was next to this other guy, and he was Marine recon. And I was like, we're not going to make it in time. And I'm starting to not panic, but just kind of get worked up about it. And he goes, nah, you win some, you lose some.
Lindsay Hiken (35:19.596)
Lindsay Hiken (35:32.238)
Hmm.
Mike Ergo (35:49.394)
I said, you know what? Yeah, that's right. What's the worst? What's the worst that's going to happen? Yeah. You know, and so, I was able to kind of detach from making it or else we were going to die, you know,
Lindsay Hiken (35:52.162)
Wow.
Lindsay Hiken (36:03.81)
Right. I mean, your brain was probably like.
Mike Ergo (36:04.658)
But yeah, you win some you lose some and I was like, and I was able to laugh about it with him.
Lindsay Hiken (36:10.932)
That's yeah, that's very, very helpful is having some levity in the situation because truly we're not going to die doing our sport. You know. I mean, it's.
Mike Ergo (36:20.088)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, you can, if like in the middle of like a some difficult sets in the pool or doing hill repeats or stuff with the track or you know, you got someone who can throw in a joke that gets you out of your head. That's perfect. And if you can be that person for someone else, even better, right?
Lindsay Hiken (36:38.978)
Yeah, yeah.
Right. yeah, that's such a good feeling, helping other people out on the course and being able to bring some levity to the situation is definitely a good feeling. Yes, I have experienced that. I experienced that with another person of color, another black person on the course, where we came upon each other and we were sort of like walk jogging for a little bit.
Mike Ergo (36:52.304)
Yes.
Lindsay Hiken (37:10.862)
in Iron Man and it was like, look at our black asses, we out here doing some white shit and we're killing it. And you know, there's a myth that black people can't swim. We're like, we swam. We didn't die. So. And it allowed me to like
Mike Ergo (37:17.97)
Ha ha ha ha
Yeah. Yeah. And then you're out of your head, right?
Right, right, exactly.
Hahaha
Lindsay Hiken (37:40.65)
start running again, you know, just that little bit of laughing was like, yep, I'm gonna. So just to wrap up a little bit, one suggestion that AI had, which I think is a great suggestion, if you're really, you know, feeling the self judgment and the guilt, and you're not in a position or even if you are in a position where it's.
Mike Ergo (37:43.131)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (38:05.346)
there's a question of whether or not you want to keep doing this and maybe you need to pivot and let go of it being your, you know, your whole identity. But let's just say that you are struggling with the self judgment and guilt and training and then comparing and despairing and all of that stuff we just talked about. One suggestion could be to journal about it and to kind of do a couple of questions, you know, in your journaling. So
What did I show up for today? You know, in a positive way, what did I show up for? Number two is how did I speak to myself during training today? What was my negative self-tape? What was what was good? You know, not just bad, but, you know, I reminded myself I'm making progress or I might be going slower today, but I might need to be in zone, you know, zone one. And then
Mike Ergo (38:55.954)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (39:03.362)
The last question is what guilt or self judgment came up today? So actually naming it, don't try to fix it, just bring it to light and just name it. And that's the third and final suggestion for journaling. So I would say today, our sort of summary and suggestion for the listener is, and I wouldn't say if you feel self guilt and judgment, because I'm pretty sure we, sorry, self judgment and guilt.
Mike Ergo (39:14.524)
Mm-hmm.
You
Lindsay Hiken (39:33.422)
I'm sure we all feel it at different times. And so when that crops up for you, try writing things down. Try writing these three questions down. What did I show up for today? How did I speak to myself during training? And what self judgment or guilt came up for me today? And just see if that helps take some of the sting out of it.
Mike Ergo (39:36.082)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Mike Ergo (39:55.77)
Yeah, yeah. I have one other suggestion as a non-AI person. What's really helped me when I recognize these feelings is to either be in a yoga class or just doing a few simple stretches and infuse it with gratitude of
Lindsay Hiken (40:00.482)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (40:18.51)
Mike Ergo (40:21.232)
being in my body and grateful that I am in my body and I, my body is allowing me to do these poses or these stretches and feeling that in my core because sometimes journaling will help me get there, but sometimes just a simple stretch, my lower back maybe, or being in a pose in the yoga class and just flipping it around from, I'm not good enough to, my God, I get to be here right now. I'm alive.
Lindsay Hiken (40:31.79)
Mmm.
Mike Ergo (40:50.396)
I get to be here right now. You know, there's no guarantee that I I wasn't owed this moment. I get to be here and renewing that way. So that's really helped me.
Lindsay Hiken (41:00.044)
Right.
Lindsay Hiken (41:05.238)
Yes, I love that idea of using a stretch and then kind of reframing like, I'm not owed this moment. That's a pretty powerful statement. I get this moment is is when you put it that way, whether or not I'm, you know, dealing with some hip issues with my my gravel biking.
Mike Ergo (41:13.956)
huh.
Lindsay Hiken (41:30.412)
It's okay, like I don't have to climb the steepest hill. I'm not owed that I can climb a less steep hill and take care of myself and it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. And so, yeah. Well, I think we did it.
Mike Ergo (41:39.206)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Mike Ergo (41:50.78)
think we did it.
Lindsay Hiken (41:52.974)
Listeners, if you want to help us out here, you know, check out our YouTube.
Mike Ergo (41:54.598)
Yeah.
Yes.
Lindsay Hiken (42:05.164)
channel. You can just search on YouTube for Ginger and Chocolate Podcasts and all of our episodes are up there for you to watch if you'd rather watch. And one thing about YouTube that you may not know is that our old episodes like when we were called age groupies, a lot of those episodes are on there. Now those are just audio not video but you can't hear them in your podcast app feed. They're not there. So they live on YouTube.
Mike Ergo (42:23.046)
Mm-hmm.
Lindsay Hiken (42:35.208)
So that's a place if you want to check out prior, you know, past episodes. An example would be we've had Lisa Sheeper, the vegan nutritionist on this this year. But she's also on back way back on on a old ginger chocolate podcast. And so you can look her up on YouTube if you want to hear more from her.
Mike Ergo (43:04.444)
Yeah. Another one speaking of black triathletes is a Morgan Latimore is the ghetto Buddha as he calls himself. so a lot of episodes to check out, a lot of episodes to check out on YouTube. So take a look.
Lindsay Hiken (43:05.268)
Alrighty, so.
Lindsay Hiken (43:14.155)
Yes, yes.
Lindsay Hiken (43:19.37)
Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, if you're so inclined, subscribe. We would love it.
Mike Ergo (43:27.942)
Yeah. huh.
Lindsay Hiken (43:30.67)
Alrighty, y'all, we will see you next week and we're going to have another great episode. Most likely an interview. We have a couple interviews in the can, so I think that we will drop one next week.
That's our plan, but it could be a surprise. and Lindsay, episode two, that's a possibility. So tune in next week. And until then, we will see you out on the trails, the road, in the pool. Bye.
Mike Ergo (44:02.3)
Yeah. Thanks everyone. See you later.