Friendship

Summary

In this episode of Ginger and Chocolate, hosts Mike and Lindsay explore the multifaceted nature of friendship, discussing personal experiences, the importance of strength training, and the dynamics of vulnerability and support in relationships. They share insights on how friendships can evolve over time, the significance of communication, and the role of humor in deepening connections. The conversation also touches on the challenges of accepting help and the value of understanding differences in friendships, particularly in the context of their diverse backgrounds.

Takeaways

• Friendship exists on a spectrum, from acquaintances to lifelong bonds.
• Strength training can be intimidating but is essential for overall health.
• Vulnerability in friendships allows for deeper connections.
• Reunions can reignite old bonds and bring back memories.
• It's important to accept help from friends when needed.
• Communication is key in navigating differences in friendships.
• Humor can help bridge gaps in understanding between friends.
• It's okay to prioritize your own happiness and well-being.
• Friendships can challenge preconceived notions about different cultures.
• Shared experiences can create strong bonds, regardless of background.

Keywords

friendship, strength training, vulnerability, communication, support, military bonds, personal growth, humor, acceptance, relationships

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Transcript

Mike (00:01)
Hey everybody, welcome back to Ginger and Chocolate. I'm your co-host Mike and my co-host Lindsay. Lindsay, how are you this morning?

Lindsay Hiken (00:08)
I'm very tired. I have had two straight weeks of not great sleep. Yeah, and I don't know why, but my brain just wants to wake up at like 11 and then two and then at two o'clock I read for like an hour because it won't go I can't go back to sleep. And then I kind of toss and turn and then I fall asleep and then my alarm goes off. It's ridiculous is what it is. ⁓

Mike (00:12)
Yeah.

Oof.

a lot.

Lindsay Hiken (00:38)
So a little tired, but I'm super happy to see you and be on the show today.

Mike (00:42)
Yes, yes, I feel the same. a little, I guess my body's tired. ⁓ I've been sleeping pretty well. I can't complain in that department, but I just got back and did some legs today at the gym. And then it's always fun to walk out like a newborn deer, just kind of wobbly, wobble, wobble, wobble down the stairs. ⁓

Lindsay Hiken (00:58)
you

That's hilarious. I've only worked out hard enough with strength like twice to have that experience and it was and in both times I was in a gym that had we were upstairs so I had to walk down. It wasn't cute. Took me a while to get down those stairs.

Mike (01:12)
huh.

yeah, that's the test right there. You know you got a good leg workout when it stares you're just like, god. One at a time. One at a time.

Lindsay Hiken (01:28)
Yeah, I think I mentioned I'm doing a strength like class now a couple of times a week. And actually the woman who owns the gym is going to come on the show and talk about it a little bit. So I'm excited about that. ⁓ So no wobblyness, but definitely sore.

Mike (01:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, how you liking the gym?

Lindsay Hiken (01:47)
It's good, I was there yesterday morning and for, we do like a circuit. on one of the circuits I picked kind of low weight and was like, I'm doing this thing. And she just came over with heavier weights and was like, let's try these. I'm like, okay. I look stronger than I am. So I'm one of those people that has a lot of muscle definition, even when I don't have any strength.

Mike (01:58)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Hahaha

Lindsay Hiken (02:16)
So she gave me the heavier weights because I look like I'm like, but I was like trying to lift them over my head, but I did. So I was pretty proud of myself after that. I can barely pick my arms up though today.

Mike (02:27)
Yeah. I had

that a couple of weeks ago. I shredded my arms doing curls and, ⁓ tricep work and stuff. And, and then I got to, ⁓ coach baseball. And so I'm trying to, I'm warming up the pitcher and I'm trying to throw it back to the pitcher and I'm just lobbing them just over the kid's head in the dirt. And they're looking at me like, what the hell's wrong with you? I'm yeah, exactly. You're terrible. I'm like, I'm, I'm useless today.

Lindsay Hiken (02:42)
you

You suck.

So well, we both agree that strength is key.

Mike (03:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in, you know, in that vein, I think a lot of our endurance people look at this strength training like, you know, vampires see the sun, it's just to be feared and mortal enemy, right?

Lindsay Hiken (03:11)
huh.

That's, that's how I've been looking at it. I'm trying to change that. Just been forcing myself to go and I'm always happy after I go. I never want to go though, but I'm always happy after I go. ⁓

Mike (03:17)
Yeah, yeah.

huh. Yeah.

I've got to this

magical place where I look forward to going now and it's almost like I don't want to jinx it but I'm just like I'm gonna stay with this I'm gonna stay with this as long as I can and so I want to get to the days where I don't want to go it's already part of my routine I'm like I'm going I'm just going

Lindsay Hiken (03:32)
⁓

Mm-hmm.

And how many days do you go a week? ⁓ wow. I'm doing two and I'm like, I'm crushing it.

Mike (03:49)
4 to 5.

Yeah.

You know, it depends on what you do. You know, if you're doing hit workouts or you're doing, you know, whole body stuff a couple of times a week is just fine.

Lindsay Hiken (04:04)
Yeah.

Okay, because that's what I'm doing. It's like a total body circuit type deal. Cool. Well, I love it.

Mike (04:08)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't do

that five days a week unless you're a real psychopath. You just don't have the time to recover either. I mean, you'll be burning calories, but you I don't know how much your muscles are going to recover.

Lindsay Hiken (04:16)
Right.

I do love the feeling I have ⁓ in my body now that I'm doing it. Like I got on the bike over the weekend and I felt ⁓ on Saturday, I felt much stronger riding and that was awesome. That was awesome. It was super cold though and.

Mike (04:29)
Huh?

Yes.

Lindsay Hiken (04:41)
I had a great time on the gravel bike on Saturday, but it was very, very cold and I was underdressed. And I think that like, because I was so cold, I didn't drink very much. So I dehydrated myself. And on Sunday, when I got on the bike, I was worthless and I did a ride I've done a bunch of times. It's not even very long. And I it was a slog the whole way.

Mike (05:01)
Yeah.

Hahaha

Lindsay Hiken (05:06)
It was horrible. was telling my friends, I'm like, I'm sorry that I'm just bitching and moaning this whole ride, but I'm I was dying, but I got through it. So, you know, that's something.

Mike (05:16)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I've the wall on a couple of training runs and I know what that's like when you hit the wall fully and you just have to stop and, and get some electrolytes, some sugar in your body. And that's, or even once a slog, I just find myself like pushing my legs down with my hands.

Lindsay Hiken (05:25)
huh.

Mm Yeah, I was.

hahahaha

⁓ So today we're going to talk about friendship, is I don't think we've ever, oddly, I don't think we've ever covered this topic, which is weird because I consider you to be a good friend and we see each other every week on the show. yet. So what does it mean to you? What does friendship mean to you?

Mike (05:44)
Yeah.

No, I don't think we have.

Yeah.

Well, I think there's, I think a spectrum of friendship, right? So there's people that you're familiar with, that you know, that are kind of slide towards acquaintances, but are friends and you're on good terms with, and you'll enjoy seeing them. You just might not have that level of trust yet. And then it slides all the way to, you know, like ride or die, you know, like friends for life. Like we've been through some crazy stuff together.

Lindsay Hiken (06:15)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm hmm. hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I would agree with that. have I have all of those. I have that whole spectrum of friends for sure. I have to say when I was out there doing my thing with Chardonnay, I did not. So the friends that I had good friends growing up, you know that I'm now close with again, that I didn't.

Mike (06:32)
and whatever you need on there.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (06:58)
go anywhere near them, I think because I was filled with a lot of shame about my lifestyle or whatever. And the friends I did have were not friends, you know what I mean? They were just drinking buddies or. Absolutely no way you could call on them in an emergency. First of all, they probably weren't going to be sober to help, but also just because. And it's interesting because when I came into the rooms and got sober. ⁓

Mike (07:02)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (07:28)
one of the thoughts I had was like, I'm never gonna have fun again. I'm gonna miss all my friends, quote unquote. It didn't take very long for me to realize like, those people aren't really, they're more like acquaintances and there isn't that trust there. And ⁓ we don't have that much in common. But since through the process over the last 21 years, I've built these really amazing friendships of people I know from

Mike (07:32)
Yeah.

Yes.

Lindsay Hiken (07:56)
you know, from sobriety. I'm super grateful for that.

Mike (08:00)
Yeah, it's, it's, to me, it can be terrifying to start making a friend and starting letting somebody in, in that capacity, because I mean, you have to let them get to know you, right? There's that whole thing. We're drinking buddies. You can just kind of just say, Hey, we're here having a good time.

Lindsay Hiken (08:16)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

No one's being honest or truthful about who they are. I mean, at that point, no one's being honest to themselves. So really, you know, there's there's that. But ⁓ yeah, it took a while for me to let people in because I didn't trust anybody ⁓ when I got sober, mainly because I was not a trustworthy person, you know, myself. And so it took took a little bit of time. But I now have these friends that I could call on in any type of.

Mike (08:29)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (08:55)
situation and they know me and I can sometimes just sometimes I just will text some of my girlfriends and be like I feel down I feel depressed today I feel stressed out I feel whatever and it'll immediately be like do you want to go for a hike do you want to go for coffee do you want to just talk do you know what can we do and that's such an amazing feeling to have people in your corner like that

Mike (08:55)
huh.

Yes, it really is. And I think ⁓ it's I think it's there's different dynamics, right? With with men and women, at least the guys I know, the the marine types, you know, we, we don't want to be a burden to anyone. So we will tend to suffer in silence. And, you know, be happy to help but receiving is my god, rather die.

Lindsay Hiken (09:37)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, asking for help can be very hard. ⁓ So I know that you were with some friends last week. Was it last weekend?

Mike (09:54)
Mm-hmm.

huh.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was out in Colorado and up in the mountains, ⁓ right along the continental divide in a place called, ⁓ outside of town called Granby, Colorado. And there was a couple hours outside of Denver in the mountains. And I met up with some guys that I served with in the Marine Corps and a few of them I'd seen, you know, within the last year and off and on for the most part though, I hadn't seen these guys in about

Lindsay Hiken (10:16)
Okay.

Mike (10:29)
20 years since I think we got back from Iraq in 2005. And that's when we all kind of split up. Yeah, it was, it was an amazing experience. You know, the scenery and the activities were, were outstanding, but seeing people and almost like not skipping a beat because I have this level of friendship with, these guys. ⁓ it was, I tried to explain cause it was a reunion. We hadn't seen each other in 20 years and, ⁓

Lindsay Hiken (10:34)
Wow. Yeah.

Mike (11:00)
I almost, I hesitated on going and I was a little hesitant because there's some real feelings there about the things we went together. Definitely. And as close as I am with these guys and was there's, it brings up, you know, memories of some intense combat that we were all in together. And so that's always linked, but you know, the, love overrode the fear in this, in this time. And I went,

Lindsay Hiken (11:03)
Mmm. ⁓

Yeah. ⁓

Mike (11:30)
And I saw these guys and I mean, they gave me some, me some really nice compliments for some of the things I'm doing to keep the memory of her fallen guys alive. And that meant a lot from, I mean, it's the best compliment I can get from these guys I trusted and looked up to. And it was just good to sit around and hang out.

Lindsay Hiken (11:43)
Mm-hmm.

That's awesome. How many of you guys were there?

Mike (11:48)
Yeah.

I think there is about 12 or 14 of us. Yeah. So it was a, it was a smaller group this time around. Um, and it was, it was, it was just, it was great. You know, it's a, it's interesting too, for me too, because, you know, I'm being a mental health provider and, and the Marine, kind of, um,

Lindsay Hiken (11:54)
Nice.

you

Mike (12:16)
on both sides of this fence of helper and one being helped. And so I had to remind myself, I'm these guys friend this weekend. I don't have to be a therapist. And it was.

Lindsay Hiken (12:28)
I was wondering about that. was going to ask you if you clocked guys that have not been, because I know you've done so much work on yourself to get healthy. I was wondering if you clocked guys that haven't been able to do that and if you were like, know, sort of there was a poll there to help them a little bit.

Mike (12:31)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I have to think it through and I have to go like, okay, what would I say as a friend? And I might give someone shit, you know, or I might make fun of them in the way that guys do the show, they care about each other and not ask therapist questions really. So.

Lindsay Hiken (12:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Mike (13:12)
You know, so we had it, we had a therapist there on staff and we had a session together as a group, which is pretty cool. Some guys opened up and I thought that was pretty neat. And I participated. I didn't, I didn't lead the session. I just was a participant. Nice therapist question. like that. it was, it was interesting because I was both observing the process and participating. And so I was like, just participate, you know,

Lindsay Hiken (13:21)
That's cool.

How'd that feel?

hahaha

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (13:41)
Just participate.

Don't don't look at the session as a session. Just as you know, be part of it. And I think I did. Yeah, it was, ⁓ this stuff. mean, they, they had, ⁓ I mean, alcohol was available. So people were drinking, you know, throughout the weekend and that was okay. You know, for the most part, people were, ⁓ pretty responsible and, and, ⁓ pretty good. And you know,

Lindsay Hiken (13:59)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (14:11)
Cause I was worried, I was worried about that part of it for myself because now that I haven't drank for almost 13 years, I, uh, I like being around the guys, but I know when it's getting dark, I usually, you know, head to bed and I just, I got a feeling like when it's that time, when it's like, you know, booze 30, I'm like, all right, I'll see you guys in the morning and everyone was okay with that. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (14:27)
Mm-hmm.

There is that feeling.

You can tell when it's there's an energy when it's starting to get to the point where I need to leave. If I'm with people, you know, there's like this energy where I'm like, ⁓ OK, we're starting to get a little louder and maybe repeat ourselves a little bit. And it's starting to get it's dark out. And I'm like, OK, well, bye.

Mike (14:45)
huh.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I'll see you all in the morning. And

what I loved about that was ⁓ I didn't want the guys to think that I was like, you you sinner heathens, staying up and drinking alcohol. And that's my thing. That's just that's my thing. Right. And it's like, there's at least my belief there's nothing inherently wrong with alcohol. I just it's not for me.

Lindsay Hiken (15:15)
Yes, yeah.

Yeah.

yeah, I mean, I think it's fine if you are able to drink responsibly, go for it. If I could drink responsibly, probably, not probably, if I could drink responsibly, I would drink responsibly. I'm just not capable. And so for me, I have to just, you know, exit. Although at this point, I would say the bulk of the people I hang out with don't drink and the people I hang out with that do drink are like,

Mike (15:31)
⁓ huh.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (15:52)
athletes and then just like nerdy normies and they just don't see the point in getting past the one drink, you know, and it's fascinating to me to watch someone because I cannot relate to having a glass of wine and like not even finishing it. You know what I mean? Sometimes I'll be like a meal with somebody and I'll be like, why are you not finishing the wine? It's like bothers me. You know what I mean? I'm like, why? And I don't say anything, but it's like.

Mike (15:58)
Hehehehehe

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's so funny I have that same thing.

Lindsay Hiken (16:21)
How are you doing? That's insane to me. Cause that would have been.

Mike (16:24)
It's akin to watching

someone eating one Pringle or one red vine. You're like, finish that fucking box. What are you doing? I know that's hilarious, right? Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (16:27)
Right. There's something wrong with you. I remember

in early sobriety being afraid of going to certain events thinking, everyone's going to be hammered and it's going to be, you know, I'm going to be there and it's going to suck. And realizing that like, no, they're not. They weren't hammered. That had been me. I had been hammered. Everyone else was like.

drinking like a normal human being in previous occasions. And it was like, ⁓ okay, I don't feel as bad. And it was embarrassing to realize these people were not parting hard like I thought they were. Only Lindsay, just drunk. ⁓

Mike (17:11)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's,

⁓ yeah, we had a great time there. And what was really cool is I learned that it's even comfortable repeating it uncomfortable because as much as I've done in the public eye, I've rarely sought out to get the spotlight for the sake of getting the spotlight.

Lindsay Hiken (17:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:41)
I've

saw it when I was like, I think there's some benefit to families of the fallen or, or, or other people or the, or getting people help and trying to be an example. So I have this love hate relationship with being in the public eye, I guess. But, ⁓ some of the guys told me some just really deep touching things about how it's really inspired them and, ⁓ how it's really helped them know that the we've honored the guys we lost and, and

Lindsay Hiken (17:51)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Awesome.

Mike (18:11)
getting

those compliments from them and just having that feeling of like, okay, I'm no time to rest, no time to get comfortable, but maybe I'm on the right track felt really good.

Lindsay Hiken (18:25)
You're definitely on the right track. mean, I wasn't in the military, as you know, but just through stuff you've shared with me or on the podcast, you know, I think that I think that it's invaluable what you can what you have to share with the people who are both.

veterans are currently in the military or just civilians. I think ⁓ I have a better understanding of what people went through by my proximity to you, you know, and I really appreciate that. And we can talk about it on another show. But, you know, I definitely came into our relationship with sort of a bias against any kind of war at all. I didn't hold individuals responsible for

Mike (19:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (19:16)
going to war or not going to war, but I definitely had a bias towards like that in general, the whole the whole culture, the whole ⁓ and or bias against it. And that was not based on anything other than the fact that I valued life and was worried about the loss of life unnecessarily kind of thing. And ⁓ having my friendship with you has

Mike (19:24)
Uh-huh. Yeah.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (19:46)
change my perspective in the sense that I'm like, okay, these people, there's a, there is a culture, but it's different than what can be perceived by civilians, you know, there's a culture of camaraderie and people are trying to do good people are trying to do.

the best they can, that people aren't trying to go like, I'm just, I'm going out there and I'm getting into, maybe there's a couple of those, I'm here to kill people. ⁓ And it's making me a badass and I'm, you know, or whatever. And that's been a really good shift in perspective for me. It's, yeah, yeah, so you are definitely on the right track. And I,

Mike (20:13)
I'm here to kill people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Thank you, Lindsay. I appreciate that. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (20:37)
Yeah, I definitely value our friendship.

Mike (20:39)
I do

too. feel the same and it's, it's, it's been good. I got exposed to a lot of different, you know, social, socioeconomic status backgrounds, a lot of different ethnic backgrounds in my time in the military and, and, ⁓ also growing up going on, on mission trips to South America and Eastern Europe. And so it's, I've been very lucky to have that perspective of.

see what this person's about and and not not be as ethnocentric or American centric you know just trying to figure out like all right people live different ways let's see what this is about and which has been so helpful and what I love about our friendship is yeah we have a lot of differences in how we grew up and in our lives and and yet there's so much common ground

Lindsay Hiken (21:10)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's, it's if you said I'm going to take like a middle aged black woman, I'm to take like this millennial veteran ⁓ and they're going to be friends. I would have thought more like they're going to be acquaintances. You know, ⁓ that's kind of when I interviewed you.

Mike (21:57)
Yeah, Uh-huh.

Lindsay Hiken (22:03)
on the show back in like 2019. I had no ⁓ expectation that I would ever talk to you again after that interview, you know. For one thing, I was like, while I was running on that Iron Man, I saw you carrying the flag and I was like, who is this douchebag? You know, like it's not hard enough already. This this a hole has got to have a big old flag and like American, you know.

Mike (22:30)
Just to make people feel

better, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (22:34)
Like Mirka and of course I found out that that was not the case at all. But yeah, think ⁓ coming to this friendship with a completely different perspective, how we were raised, ⁓ our ethnicity, our gender, ⁓ I think it's an important thing for

Mike (22:36)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (23:02)
us and anyone else who's in sort of relationships where you've got maybe differences on the surface. I think it's important to share that with the world or at least in our country right now because it is very divided. And I think there's a lot of racial tension. There's a lot of tension and animosity between genders. There's a lot of women's rights issues right now. ⁓

Mike (23:19)
Yeah, uh-huh.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, there's a, bless you. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of divisive issues that people almost, it almost feels like like, let's get to this so we can know where we're divided. Let's bring up these division points and sure. We have different strong opinions on some things and that's, that's okay. But we're

Lindsay Hiken (23:31)
Sorry, I had to sneeze. ⁓

Yeah.

Mike (23:53)
I think we talk about the intersection of friendship and differences is can you give extend the charity of the best possible interpretation of someone's words? You know, can you extend the benefit of the doubt of this is a human being who wants the best for themselves and their community? And that's not always true. But if you start there, you can you create that possibility for to see if that's true.

Lindsay Hiken (24:13)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mike (24:22)
Whereas if you start with, they're the other, then you've already eliminated any possibility of finding common ground where there actually will be some.

Lindsay Hiken (24:22)
Mm-hmm.

And I think probably there are more people who, if you come with a bias and you don't wanna meet somewhere where they're at and you aren't particularly interested in finding out who they really are, I think that you are discounting more people than are.

then there are people who you would kind of meet and go, this is actually a horrible person. I think most people are not horrible people. ⁓ They may present that way based on ⁓ preconceived notions of who they are. Like an example would be when we had Brock on the show and he was talking about his ⁓ his book and about how he.

Mike (24:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

huh. Right.

Uh-huh.

Lindsay Hiken (25:17)
was in the hospital and had that that, you know, drop something or whatever. And the only guy in the hospital that are in the ER right there that helped him was the very clearly MAGA guy. And his assumption would be that like, that's the last guy that's going to do anything for me. ⁓ So we just don't know.

Mike (25:27)
huh. Yeah. Yeah, right?

Yeah, that's it.

We don't know. And I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful I got the privilege to serve in the military because among many reasons, and there are a lot, one of them is ⁓ I'll never forget the times I had out in town on the weekends. And you could tell Marines coming from a mile away from the most part because

Lindsay Hiken (26:02)
⁓ huh.

Mike (26:03)
It almost looks like, you know, the millennial version of the village people, because you got the, the black guy and the FUBU, you got the Mexican guy and Ben Davis, ⁓ crease khakis. And then you got the cowboy with a 10 gallon hat. You know, it's just, it's just like three guys or four guys walking together with totally different styles. And it's like a super team. So

Lindsay Hiken (26:26)
huh.

That's awesome.

Mike (26:30)
Yeah,

I love it. So you're like, how does this work? Right? How does this fit together?

Lindsay Hiken (26:37)
Well,

like you said, going through something together erases all of that. All of that. ⁓ I don't think I have anything as intense, you know, friendship wise as being serving the military together. ⁓ But.

Mike (26:42)
Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (26:58)
What I have with my women friends, for example, is a shared experience of being female, even though we're all from different, you know, we're different race groups and ethnic backgrounds and socioeconomic backgrounds. you know, there is this common sort of like shorthand language that we share. ⁓ And my friends are all very funny. And that's what I like, because they've got, you know, good sense of humor and we can. ⁓

Mike (27:04)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm, yeah.

Hehehehe ⁓

Lindsay Hiken (27:27)
⁓ we can talk seriously, but we can also laugh about some of the, you know, the stuff that happens. Cause I think in some cases, if you can't laugh at something, it's you're going to cry. So laughter can be good. ⁓ but yeah, they're all my, my close friends now are all different age groups. And, I have to say predominantly white, not because that's a choice, but because of where I live. That just.

Mike (27:40)
Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (27:57)
that just kind of what happened, ⁓ but not completely white. And ⁓ I do have one girlfriend who lives here in Half Moon Bay who is also not white, she's Filipino. And we have the shared experience of.

being treated a certain way based on the fact that we're not Caucasian. ⁓ And one of the things we noticed and we laughed about is that walking on a, walking on a pathway, ⁓ white women, if someone's coming towards them, they're not necessarily gonna get over. They're just doing their thing. They're not necessarily gonna move to the side, because they're just like, what, I'm here, I'm, you know. And my other girlfriend and I were like,

Mike (28:38)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (28:46)
way off the trail to the side, like, pardon us for being, you know. So we learned something from our girlfriends, not to like never get out of someone's way, but that we don't need to sort of do this like extra scraping and bowing where we get to the side and like we don't count and don't need to be on the trail. So we've kind of been inspired by our other girlfriends of like, I'm walking on this trail, we can pass each other. ⁓ And I don't need to make myself small.

Mike (28:49)
Interesting.

Yeah.

Right, right.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (29:15)
⁓ And that's from friendship. And it's great to have another friend who's going through it with me. And it's also great to have girlfriends that are like, why are you in the bushes? Come on out and walk with us on the trail. ⁓ Yeah, so. So I learn a lot from I learn a lot from my girlfriends and I also hopefully. ⁓

Mike (29:16)
that. I really like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (29:44)
Hopefully I'm a good friend to them.

Mike (29:47)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I have the same hope and dream to do that, to be a good friend as well. I think one one thing I like to throw out there too is is so especially if we have friends that are different in whatever way. The differences can still be acknowledged, we don't have to pretend they're not there. But we don't have to create an other because we have differences.

Lindsay Hiken (30:16)
Right, right.

Mike (30:16)
You know, we can

acknowledge differences and be curious about them and ask each other, you know, what it's like or, you know, if you have that level of familiarity with someone and be like, you know, when you develop that rapport, you can say, you can ask them what it's what it's like, or you can ask them about something and you learn something about someone that you might not have known.

Lindsay Hiken (30:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely kind of the experience that I had with the trail walking, for example, ⁓ white females are used to taking up more space in the world. ⁓ And it's been acceptable, you know, and it is acceptable. I think it's good. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. Brown females are used to.

Mike (31:01)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (31:05)
not taking up space in the world because that's sort of been a cultural thing of like, get, you know, get the hell out of the way. And I can learn from them and ask them what it's like and we can have a conversation about it. And some of these girlfriends of mine took a course. There's a and I'm so bummed I don't remember her name, but there is a black woman who's an author and she wrote sort of a workbook about.

Mike (31:12)
Right, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (31:32)
being a workbook for white people about being black and what it's like and and some of the differences that people who are part of the majority ⁓ race group might not know about because it's not an experience it's not an experience they've experienced and some of these girlfriends got together and did

Mike (31:51)
Interesting. Uh huh. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (31:59)
like a little did the course together, because there's a they have a book and there's a course and ⁓ we would ride our bikes together and they would just ask me questions because they were kind of like, I never thought about this. I never and this never occurred to me. And then we would have these discussions about my experience with whatever the topic was. And, you know how and I even had a girlfriend say, I don't know if this is exactly true. I don't know if I don't know if I have an advantage because I'm white female.

And I was able to talk to her about it and say, here's where some of the advantages are from my perspective. ⁓ And, you know, raising children, it's harder to raise like I said, did you have to have a discussion with your kids about how to not get shot when police pull, you know, how to behave in specific ways and what not to do to avoid potential danger interacting with the police? And of course, none of my girlfriends had.

Mike (32:35)
Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Lindsay Hiken (32:57)
to do that. And so, but having these conversations was it was very intense. And you know, we challenged each other and remained friends.

Mike (33:07)
Yeah, that's I like that. I was wondering

too. Did you feel any pressure being like the spokesperson for all black people?

Lindsay Hiken (33:14)
Yes, I definitely did and

I'm not the blackest person out there. You know what I mean? I'm mixed race. ⁓ I should I should get that. ⁓

Mike (33:22)
that to be a t-shirt. I'm not the blackest person out there. ⁓

I like that.

Yeah, I sometimes I'm the token veteran and I were the ambassador for veterans or the military in general. And not the same thing, but there's some similarities and like, well, I I got the right answer. Or if I don't know, I don't know. But

Lindsay Hiken (33:34)
Mm.

Yeah, there's some pressure because

if you act like an asshole, then people can be like, well, this is how all black people feel or this is what veterans are like, you know. So it's a it's a it's a good thing to be able to speak. To these differences and to help and be an ambassador, and it's also, ⁓ you know, a double edged sword a little bit. Mm And. ⁓

Mike (33:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a responsibility for sure.

Lindsay Hiken (34:13)
not being the blackest person out there has worked to my advantage, you know, in terms of culturally sort of ⁓ we call it code switching, you know, ⁓ which is, yeah, which is where and my my children are able to code switch as well. And, you know, that can be looked at as a negative where we have to sort of change who we are in the face of interacting with other race groups.

Mike (34:17)
Yeah.

⁓ right.

Lindsay Hiken (34:44)
But I don't know that that's really true. I don't feel like I'm code switching when I'm with my white friends. But I'm also not like, what up, nigga? You know what I mean? Like so. ⁓ And the way that I speak and talk to a room with just black friends in it is different.

Mike (34:55)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right, yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (35:10)
But I don't feel fake, I'm not trying to be, it's just that I have an understanding of like culture and language and how people, which I think is important, it's good to have sort of an understanding of that.

Mike (35:16)
culture.

Yeah, it's I have a veteran version of that too. When I'm with my guys, you know, it's like, we're the one of my with my vet guys, I'm like, what's up, you stupid looking motherfucker, like, you know, and, and that's a term of endearment. What I see what, you know, I can't say that to my civilian friends, because they're just like, you hate me? Like, no, that means that I like you.

Lindsay Hiken (35:28)
Mm-hmm. I'm sure.

Right, right.

Right.

Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. There's ⁓ shorthand like I was saying, there's shorthand. And then I think you develop your own shorthand with close friends that are just, you know, once you start opening up and letting them know who you are, you have a little bit of a shorthand happening. ⁓ I was going to share with the listeners that ⁓ a while back you were in

Mike (35:51)
you

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (36:13)
Alaska, and you were like, there's black people here. And to me, I was I thought it was funny. And I was like, what are you you know, I was actually kind of surprised there were black people there, to be honest, because we don't we're not really into the cold, to be honest. And but then afterwards, you reached out and asked me if that was ⁓ in any way inappropriate, which I appreciated you thinking that through. But

Mike (36:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (36:43)
I didn't feel that. What I felt more like was that we have a close friendship and you're comfortable with me. And you knew that I would think that that was funny as fuck. And it was.

Mike (36:57)
Yeah, it's,

it's interesting, right? Just kind of feeling it out. Like, do you know my heart when I'm, when I'm saying this, you know, like, do you, do you know, because that's, and you think about it we could do a whole show on communication too, but you know, it's a, obviously in person is the best. And then there's, there's where you can, we can see each other right now on this platform. The listeners probably just hear our words, but you know, you're, you're missing the micro expressions and

Lindsay Hiken (37:05)
Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mike (37:26)
facial features and posture and, and, and eyes and everything. And then, and then there's text, right? Where if I texted that it would have been like, what was the tone? You can't tell. Right.

Lindsay Hiken (37:33)
Yeah.

Right.

Just there are black people here. Like a flat tone is like, OK, Mike. Exactly. Josh and Josh and I have a, you know, obviously romantic relationship, but I consider him my best friend as well.

Mike (37:41)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like I'm disappointed in that. Like, they're black people.

Hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (38:03)
And on the topic of knowing his heart, he was somewhere like in the East Bay or something and he for work and he popped into a target and he was, you know, there weren't really any white guys there at that particular target. And he called me and said.

Now I know what it's like to be you. And I said, what are you talking about? And he's like, I'm the only white person in the room. And I know what it's like to be you. And he was laughing. And I that could be offensive. You know what I mean? Like I'm the only white guy in here and I know what it's like to be. But I knew what he was, you know, I knew where he was coming from. He was trying to be funny and share his experience with me. And and there's a kernel of truth in that probably, you know, it's probably the first time he'd only been the only white person in a room. ⁓

Mike (38:30)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (38:52)
But if you know someone well, you know what they. Their sense of humor or what would offend them or what, you know, what you could say that might be offensive to someone else, but it's funny because you have this shared experiences in the past.

Mike (39:07)
Yes,

you have that it's like a it's like having a bank of social credit. Right. So if a stranger said that to you, it's a lot different. Like, what the fuck do you mean? Right. But someone you know, you know, who they are, they built that trust up, then you're like, Okay, I think I know you're coming from you can clarify. But and then what I love is like being able to say things like that. And then feel it out if you feel like you need to.

Lindsay Hiken (39:12)
Yeah, that's a good way of putting it.

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Mike (39:34)
feel it out like how was that for you when I said that or explain yourself if you need to but then if you don't say that it's so limited right we're just trying to be polite and and not offend anybody and that's boring that's just it's boring right you know

Lindsay Hiken (39:38)
Right.

Yeah.

It is pretty boring. Yeah, it's good to know

when to be politically correct. And it's good to know when you don't have to be. ⁓ And I, you know, sometimes I'm good at that. Sometimes I've not. I've I've ⁓ been on work calls with someone of my own race group, you know.

Mike (39:55)
Uh-huh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (40:14)
and popped off with something and been like, wait, that's just not appropriate because I'm at work. So, you know, it's easy to get confused occasionally about that. ⁓ I was going to tell a quick story about on the topic of, you know, being there for friends, but having a hard time receiving. ⁓ I feel like I can receive

Mike (40:17)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Lindsay Hiken (40:42)
⁓ when it's something small like, ⁓ you I'd like to have coffee because I'm feeling kind of down. That to me is a no brainer. And of course I would do it for a friend. I would do anything for a friend. ⁓ But remember when I broke my ankle? ⁓ I'm only laughing because it was dumb. mean, I was wearing flats and I was at SFO and I just fell off the curb for no reason and broke my ankle like an old lady. ⁓

And what I did was I kept going. I was in that I hadn't even gotten into the airport yet. I mean, I was on the curb and I thought, well, I sprained my ankle, even though I heard a snapping noise. ⁓ And I went all the way through security. I was like limping and I was going on a work trip and I'm like, well, I'll fly to L.A. and then I'll go to Kaiser on my way to the office before this lunch.

Mike (41:23)
Oof.

Of Right.

Lindsay Hiken (41:40)
I just dumb,

right? And I have this text string with a bunch of my half moon bay girlfriend and we're on this thing all day every day, know, sharing memes to rough, you know, really rough patches with spouses or partners. I mean, and everything in between. And so.

Mike (41:50)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (42:01)
I was sitting at the at the gate and my ankle was all swollen and I was like, this thing hurts. It's throbbing. I texted them and I was like, you guys, I just totally sprained my ankle and I'm hobbling around SFO now and I wasn't asking for help or anything. I just was telling them what happened. And I sent them a picture of puffy ankle and they immediately were like, you need to go to the hospital. And I'm like, well, I'm going to fly to LA first and blah, blah, blah. And they were like, you should really.

probably get that looked at. So then I told the woman at the gate, she was like, are you okay? And I said, maybe and she's like, I'm getting the paramedics over here. So they wrapped it for they said you should go to the hospital. And I was like, I'm going to just fly to LA first. And they were like, okay. And they wrapped it. So then I'm telling my girlfriend's like, No, no, the paramedics wrapped it. I'm good. And so one of these friends called me at this point, I'm sitting on the airplane, ⁓ just at the gate.

And she said, I just want to say to you, you get to take care of yourself.

And I was like, no, I'm cool, I'm cool. And she was like, you know, your job is, they're just gonna have to understand. And I appreciated her calling and saying that to me, she was worried about me. And I was just being so obstinate, you know, and I was like, I don't need any help, I'm just gonna do. Fortunately for me, the plane ended up having a mechanical and they...

Mike (43:23)
⁓

Lindsay Hiken (43:31)
and then at that point I couldn't stand up and I was like, ⁓ they had to get me a wheelchair and I was like, maybe I should go to the hospital. And one of my girlfriends who is on that text ring works at SFO. She's the one who puts all the restaurants and all the cool stores in there. That's her and it goes, you know that. That's why SFO is killer. ⁓ And she's like, I'm in the office. I'll just come pick you up. Just tell them to roll you to that. And she just picked me up and took me to the hospital, which is freaking amazing.

Mike (43:37)
Perhaps.

cool.

What a gal, what a friend.

Lindsay Hiken (44:01)
Uh huh. And I

just appreciated all of that. It was so hard for me to accept that help and to hear what they were saying. You know, the universe had to step in and be like, everyone off the plane, so this stupid cow can get off. And then as soon as I was off, they're like, things fixed and everyone got on the plane, they took off to LA. But. But even in the face of having a hard time accepting help, these women were there, you know, to to support me.

Mike (44:11)
Mm-hmm.

Break that plane. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (44:32)
And

what a cool thing to have happen. I mean, not the ankle break, but you know, all that support.

Mike (44:38)
Yeah. Yeah. The

situation that resulted from it. I get it. I can get that. And it just pinged on a very small thing or small sentence, but big impact in my life. had a, I have a friend, guy named fireman Rob. He's a motivational speaker and iron man athlete. And I think we've had him on the show before we'll get him back. he just told me one time I was explaining all these things I was trying to do and,

Lindsay Hiken (44:57)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Mike (45:05)
worried if I wasn't doing enough. Survivors guilt was kind of big in my life at the point where I couldn't see it. He said, it's okay to be happy.

Lindsay Hiken (45:14)
Hmm.

Mike (45:16)
And that was exactly the words I needed to hear. You know, it's like, it's, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (45:18)
Yeah, that's hard to

embrace sometimes.

Mike (45:24)
I almost felt like that scene in Good Will Hunting where he's sitting there and like, it's not your fault. It's like, what the fuck are you doing to me, man? And he starts crying, it's not your fault.

Lindsay Hiken (45:29)
Yeah, that's an awesome

thing to say to somebody. It's okay to be happy. I would say that to everybody listening because I'm sure that not everyone listening knows that. At least on any given day. ⁓

Mike (45:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's okay to

take care of yourself and it's okay to be happy, right?

Lindsay Hiken (45:51)
Mm hmm. And sometimes you need a friend to tell you that. I know we're going to go soon, but I have a question about while you're serving in the military and friendships, do you make specific closer friends? Like, do you you end up developing like, you know, this particular like I'm close with everybody because of the shared experience, but this particular guy is like my my guy. Is there time for that?

Mike (45:54)
Uh-huh.

huh.

Yes. Yeah.

There is, there is, because there's a lot of downtime where you're cleaning weapons, cleaning everything, ⁓ picking up trash. ⁓ and then the weekends, you know, when you're off, ⁓ yeah. And I had that, I had that with a few guys that are really close to me and some of them are no longer here. And which is hard, but some I still keep up with that are here and yeah.

It's funny at first, like when I got out, I was on the East coast and stationed in North Carolina. I wasn't very familiar with Southern culture and like everything. And the whole thing through me for a loop is a huge adjustment. So I ended up mostly hanging out with the Mexicans who are mostly from California. Yeah, exactly. We see eye to eye, homie. So yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (47:05)
You're like, we understand each other. We don't eat chitlins.

which aren't as bad as you might think they are. I've tried them when I was in the South and you if you put enough hot sauce on them, you can eat entrails. ⁓ Well, I don't know. Do you have any last words about this?

Mike (47:21)
No.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I think that...

I'd say to the listeners, if this resonated with you at all, and there's some people you need to reach out to, you know, just just to say hi, show your appreciation for him for being there, perhaps in the past. Or, you know, taking a step to get to know somebody who might not have been on your radar. And just just say hi to them and see where it goes.

Lindsay Hiken (48:09)
Yeah, yeah. And I would say, you work on overcoming some of the fear and uncomfortability of opening up a little bit to somebody, you know, you don't have to go tell them everything about yourself, but that that whole like the whole idea of getting a little deeper can be scary, like Mike said, the top of the show. But it's worth it. I think.

Mike (48:23)
Yes.

Yes, it's worth

it. ⁓ It's worth it. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (48:39)
Cool.

All right, guys. Well, we did it. ⁓ Next week, I believe we're having an interview and ⁓ super excited for that. And yeah, if you are listening to the show and you like it you want to support us, just ⁓ go to your podcast app wherever you're listening and ⁓

Mike (48:47)
Yep.

Lindsay Hiken (49:03)
click on subscribe and download. And then, ⁓ you know, if you wanna rate us, you can rate us too. you know, obviously we prefer five stars, but do what, you know, do what feels good to you. ⁓ Ratings and downloads is what helps get our show out to other people who might be able to, you know, benefit from hearing us. Cool. All right, we will see you next week.

Mike (49:18)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

All right, see y'all.

Lindsay Hiken (49:33)
Bye.

⁓