Steve Keesal and PTSD

Summary

In this episode of the Ginger and Chocolate podcast, hosts Lindsay Hiken and Mike engage in a deep conversation with returning guest Steve Keesal about the challenges of transitioning from military life to civilian life, particularly focusing on post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), anger management, and the importance of community and support in recovery. They share personal experiences with sobriety, the role of meditation, and the significance of connection in overcoming struggles. The discussion emphasizes the journey of healing and personal growth, highlighting the value of shared experiences and the tools that aid in recovery. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the complexities of mental health, trauma, and the importance of movement and stillness in healing. They discuss personal experiences with physical challenges, the impact of military training on behavior, and the nuances of trauma responses. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of connection and support in managing PTSD and highlights various techniques for coping and healing.

Takeaways

• Post-traumatic stress disorder can significantly impact veterans' lives.
• Transitioning from military to civilian life can be challenging and requires adjustment.
• Sobriety is often a crucial step in the recovery process for veterans.
• Anger management is a common struggle for those with PTSD.
• Community support plays a vital role in recovery and healing.
• Physical activity can be a beneficial outlet for managing emotions.
• Meditation and spiritual practices can help in calming the mind and reducing anxiety.
• Personal connections with others who have similar experiences can provide comfort and understanding.
• Recognizing and addressing emotional responses is essential for personal growth.
• The journey of recovery is ongoing and requires continuous effort and support. Lindsay shares her struggles with physical pain and mental health.
• The importance of balancing movement and stillness for well-being.
• Exercise can provide a sense of solitude and clarity.
• Trauma responses can manifest differently in individuals.
• Military training can influence behavior and reactions to stress.
• Understanding the fear model can help in managing anger.
• It's crucial to differentiate between types of trauma experiences.
• Support from friends can be vital in managing PTSD.
• Various techniques for healing can be effective for different people.
• Connection with others can help calm anxiety and promote healing.

Keywords

PTSD, military transition, sobriety, anger management, community support, meditation, personal growth, recovery, mental health, veterans, mental health, trauma, PTSD, movement, stillness, veterans, mindfulness, emotional support, healing, self-care

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Transcript

Lindsay Hiken (00:00.962)
Hey, folks, welcome to the Ginger and Chocolate podcast. I am Lindsay, along with my co-host, Mike. What up, Mike?

Mike (00:07.652)
Hey, good to see Lindsey. Excited for the show today. We've got an awesome guest and we're going to get into it.

Lindsay Hiken (00:09.624)
Good.

We do today. Our guest is Steve Keisel. He is returning. He was a host at a host. Hmm. He was a guest earlier this year. We had a wonderful talk and I really wanted to bring him back and have a conversation between Steve and Mike because Mike didn't make our last episode. And I think that they have a lot in common. So with that, Mike, I'm going to let you kind of kick things off.

Mike (00:37.376)
Okay, yeah. Hey, Steve, good to meet you, brother. And I'm excited for this episode. Excited to get down to it and talk and hash it out.

Steve Keesal (00:46.497)
It's good to meet you too. And all of that esteem is entirely mutual. I think the world of what you guys are doing. And I really enjoyed myself the last time I was with you guys. So I'm excited to be here today.

Mike (01:01.412)
outstanding. So I know we talked before about talking a little bit about post traumatic stress disorder, stress that comes after operations, the stress that comes after deployments and how it affects us, I guess in theater and back at home and after we get out and what it looks like for recovery and healing and transitioning forward.

Steve Keesal (01:25.423)
You know, I love talking about this and it was easy for me because I think that there was a combined intensity level that was so extreme. I finished the Army in kind of a hurry. You you wait for it all your life. But the way it worked with us,

Mike (01:50.371)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (01:54.351)
was there was a stop loss and that stop loss kept me over for an extra 65 days beyond what my normal on the back of my ID card time in the army should have been. Okay, so the way three different and it's important to understand whether you were the guy from Chicago or the

Mike (02:08.674)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (02:10.945)
What is a stop loss?

Steve Keesal (02:22.543)
Rich kid from Texas or I mean, whichever of the three presidents, which were very different presidents during Afghanistan and Iraq, their policy was not to draft. Their policy was to hold people over in a part on the back of the contract. says members, uh, maybe, uh, you know, forced to serve 24 months.

beyond this contract at the convenience of the president. so, and this is interesting because this goes across, you know, political affiliations. This is something that everybody thought was the right way to handle it, was instead of drafting people, you would hold people per MOS, Military Occupational Specialty, so that you had the right people

Mike (02:54.958)
part of the fine print.

Steve Keesal (03:21.189)
to do the job and that people who were, it's like the least fair thing you could possibly imagine in your life. You know, it's, it's an all volunteer RV, but there were a ton of people who were called back, you know, who had just started families or who had just started great jobs. And, know, it was the way they called people back was that essentially people who were highly skilled could go back to.

Mike (03:39.48)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (03:51.153)
either like a reserve unit, which maybe didn't have the training or they could sign on for another very long period of time to assure that they were with their comrades or with people who were operating on their level of professionalism. So it's.

Mike (04:03.746)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (04:08.11)
So did they just take people who sucked and go, okay, you're done, your contract's over?

Mike (04:08.171)
One way.

Steve Keesal (04:13.937)
no, no, it was done by specialty. know, if you like for in the civilian world, if you were an accountant or if you were a lawyer or in the in the military world, if you were a an infantryman or or a, you know, medic or something like that, they would they would extend your contract. So it's important, I think, for everybody to know that that was absolutely

Lindsay Hiken (04:17.154)
Okay.

Mike (04:28.888)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (04:34.551)
Okay.

Mike (04:36.984)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (04:43.299)
across the political spectrum of the United States, what everybody thought was a good idea for three administrations that probably couldn't have been more different.

Mike (04:45.369)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (04:49.452)
Yeah.

Mike (04:52.91)
There's one thing I guess that relates it to our endurance folks that are listening is it's imagine doing a full iron man. You get to the finish line and they say congratulations. However, you still have to run another marathon before you finish and then we'll get your medal and then you can go home. So it's a yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (05:13.198)
That's where I fall to the ground and die. So,

Steve Keesal (05:17.585)
So I got out of the army and I think this is important because you don't realize when you're hanging out with other people who are just like you, exactly how you are. I was landed in paradise. All I have to do is go to college at Long Beach State and

Mike (05:33.892)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (05:47.227)
I'm sitting at a party on someone's patio in Sunset Beach, California, surrounded by everybody's fantasy. know, it's a good looking surfer girls and everybody is calm and relaxed. And it's just the most beautiful setting you could possibly imagine. You know, and I realized that I'm on the moon, you know, and I talked to a Marine who happens to be sitting next to me.

Mike (06:12.004)
Hmm.

Steve Keesal (06:17.3)
who was a Marine from an earlier area. And he said, hey, are you the guy who just got out of the Army? And I said, yeah. And he said, well, you know, get it. takes a couple of years to adjust, but don't worry. You adjust and you know, this will be fine. know? And so there were a few things that I noticed were wrong with me. There was a lot wrong with me at the time. I was a heavy, heavy drinker and I mean, just drank like a fish.

all the time.

Mike (06:46.34)
Part for the course, military culture really, right?

Steve Keesal (06:49.333)
And the thing I noticed was wrong with me, though, was that I would go from zero to 60 as far as anger was concerned, and it would take me a really long time to come down from being that angry or that upset. And it would happen in an instant and it would last forever. And at the same time, there was no calibration between, you know,

Mike (07:01.604)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (07:07.897)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (07:17.86)
what made me upset. was something tiny could set me off and something big might not be as big a deal or it might be a big deal. But I wasn't upset proportionately to whatever was presenting itself in front of me.

Lindsay Hiken (07:35.405)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (07:38.884)
Were you aware of that at the time that you were overreacting maybe?

Steve Keesal (07:43.413)
I,

Mike (07:48.588)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (08:04.704)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steve Keesal (08:13.078)
is to know that there is a problem for a number of months and feel like you're kind of maybe circling the drain or the whirlpool or the abyss or whatever.

Mike (08:26.308)
Mmm, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (08:30.222)
I relate to that quite a bit. definitely circle the drain on my own sobriety. And one quick thing I wanted to say about the anger and the disproportionate, I don't necessarily relate to the anger zero to 60, but I do relate to a disproportionate response to things. And I've heard in AA, they've said, you know, like something catastrophic can happen and an alcoholic can go right through it, you know, no problem.

and then you get a paper cut and it's like you need to call the suicide hotline, you know? And that was how I dealt with life as well, you know? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. It's not a great way to live, for sure.

Steve Keesal (09:07.071)
Yeah, I think that's fascinating.

Mike (09:09.538)
Yeah.

You know, I was similar to you and then I was drinking heavy because that's what I knew of how to calm down or that's how I knew to access feelings and I was angry. I remember

Steve Keesal (09:14.047)
So, what were you like when you got out, Mike?

Mike (09:35.458)
Random things pop out to me. I'm going in between panic attacks, walking down my stairs and having a visceral memory of being in a house where, you know, we had a gunfight and I was trapped on some stairs and you'll go from panic attacks where I don't know what's happening or I'm driving and someone finds a parking spot before I do. And all of a sudden I'm trying to get out of the car and fight this person who got the parking spot disproportionately angry.

And I noticed people around me started to get a little worried and uncomfortable because, know, I became a liability that way. And I didn't understand what was going on. I just knew that there was a lot of things happening inside and I didn't like it.

Steve Keesal (10:18.583)
You know, as we get better, and I'm always talking with a dear friend of mine who was a force recon Marine and he's our best friend, Tony, Nevada. He performed hope and I's wedding. were three people in the ceremony himself and hope and I. Okay. And we have heard a term post-traumatic growth, you know,

Mike (10:44.793)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (10:46.135)
And it's, this is, this is, we talk about the scar tissue that the three of us have. And I think it's important for people to understand that, that on the other side, if you're willing to put in the work, and, and, and, and for me, the work started with sobriety. And I thought it was interesting because at the West LA VA, the first thing they told me in my rehabilitation or, you know, drug and alcohol rehab.

Mike (10:52.174)
Yeah.

Mike (11:00.217)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (11:04.525)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (11:15.48)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (11:15.82)
was run by a guy who was an airborne ranger in Vietnam. And he said in the first week, you guys are going over, myself and one other guy, roughly my age, you guys are going over to the PTSD outpatient services team, which was a building that was 200 yards away from the building where we were getting sober and starting immediately. And then I had an intake meeting.

Mike (11:38.788)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (11:45.366)
with Leslie Martin and Jim Dwyer. And these are guys who had been working on post-traumatic stress disorder since the Vietnam War. And they said, look, we just want you to know we won't talk to anybody who hasn't been 30 days in total abstinence of drugs and alcohol. Because you can't work on a moving target, right? You know what mean?

Mike (12:06.636)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (12:12.782)
Yeah.

Mike (12:13.806)
Man.

Steve Keesal (12:14.084)
And I thought, OK, well, that's that's delightful because that's exactly where I am in life. But so many of our friends continue to want to drink or have a smoke or any of these things. if you can, if you can, know, my hat is off to anyone who can maintain that lifestyle. God knows I'd be with them if I only could.

Mike (12:43.372)
Yeah, yeah.

Steve Keesal (12:44.153)
But the important thing is that if you are willing to maintain yourself, you can get on the other side of these things and you can be stronger. Now, that intensity that we have is always going to be there. And I think as long as you recognize what it is, can be a

A gift, know, intensity is, is, to, to us of value. Okay. And I'll talk about intensity. want to talk about intensity because this is great, but, but also, obsessive attention to detail, which, know, when I'm working with people or, or, you know, with, with my best friend, the love of my life, my, my wife hope, you know,

Mike (13:20.184)
Yes.

Mike (13:24.162)
Yeah, me too.

Steve Keesal (13:42.521)
Luckily, he sees what is the very worked on part of me as far as attention to detail and obsession and that kind of stuff. But it's still on a scale of one to 10, it's probably a 12.

Mike (13:50.724)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (13:59.059)
Mike (14:00.568)
Yeah. Well, when you talk about that intensity, yeah, I want to talk about that with you because the intensity, I see it as, you know, we have energy, right? We have energy. And when it's not directed, it's like shooting from the hip. You know, it's like it's like holding the fire hose that's going all over the place, but you get a nice tight group or, you know, good placement or direct that energy at something that you intend that's good for you. You can accomplish a lot of things.

But you're right, the intensity is there.

Steve Keesal (14:32.346)
and inspiring people, you know, it's very interesting. There's a generational thing happening with intensity and people who are younger. Younger than I'm 52, I'm 10 years older than my ranger buddies are. OK, and people who are in their.

Mike (14:52.622)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (14:57.146)
20s or maybe early 30s tend to see intensity as a character defect. And I think people who are older seem to think, think of it more as a value or something that's good. But the important thing is, is we can inspire people and we can get people motivated to do things or motivated.

Mike (15:03.726)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (15:27.011)
just about life, which is, know, my cousin Josh Kiesel, who is a 30 year green beret says, I don't know how long he was in the army, but he forever he's a lieutenant colonel with seventh group. And he says life is a special operation. So just just kind of dealing with life and getting the best of it.

Mike (15:47.097)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (15:54.348)
instead of having to get the best of you is important.

Lindsay Hiken (15:57.474)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mike (15:59.032)
What helped you maintain that sobriety when you started? Because I'll say for me, when I started, I knew I had to. It was the end of my relationship if I didn't. And that was more important to me than drinking, which was at the top of my list at the time. And the tsunami of feelings that I had to feel and hold and deal with and sit through were so intense.

I was fortunate not to relapse with alcohol or any drug, but I can see why people do.

Lindsay Hiken (16:33.422)
How did you do it though? How did you sit through the tsunami of feelings?

Mike (16:40.386)
You know, a couple things I did and I want to hear from you Steve too about this is, you know, I went to meetings. I had friends who were bringing their bring me there. I had another Marine who was there. He was like, yeah, go there. You know, some people kind of grouchy, but we'll hang out and it'll be OK. And besides that, I was working out nonstop because I had to do something with the energy.

Lindsay Hiken (16:56.014)
Hmm.

Steve Keesal (17:04.72)
Yeah, I was touching on this in my earlier conversation on the show just with Lindsay, but working out is like cheating. And it really, it really helps. You know, I've had a really bad back and I haven't been to the gym in a couple of weeks, but I took a long brisk walk this morning. I mean, that's how bad the back is. It wasn't a run, you know?

Mike (17:16.248)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:29.24)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:33.261)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (17:33.532)
And just some movement is so good to free the mind. But the most important sense of relief that I got was talking with people who are like me. And when I first got sober at the VA hospital, I was surrounded by a bunch of Vietnam combat vets. And those were great guys.

Mike (17:41.718)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (17:49.379)
Hmm.

Mike (17:58.777)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (18:02.627)
Getting in touch with and talking with actually got the guys I worked with in the army who I'm still very close with with three or four of them. And I talk with maybe six or seven of them once a year is so important. I remember going down to Florida because I was a loss prevention guy and there was a hurricane there and I saw my Ranger buddy, Sonny Krauss, and he and I were on the same

machine gun team together. And when I saw the guy, both were crying tears of joy. And we were so happy. One of the guys that I worked with said he felt like he had done a great thing just by being there when we we got that back together, you know. And so that

Mike (18:52.196)
Yeah, it's so important that getting together like that, like that, that I I'm with you there, Steve, because if it hadn't been for this other Marine who brought me, you know, to, you know, AA for a while, I wouldn't have lasted. I don't think I would have lasted at all because, know, you remind me of when you're talking is the shared misery you go through with the guys when you're in is doable because the other guys are there.

Lindsay Hiken (19:18.188)
Hmm.

Mike (19:22.018)
You know, the the shared suffering you look around you're like, this guy is doing it. He's doing it. I'm here. We're, we're surviving this and the same thing in the rooms. That's that's what helped me.

Steve Keesal (19:22.076)
That's That's right.

Lindsay Hiken (19:31.342)
Mm hmm. I had that I had that experience too. I was just going to say that the first few meetings I went to were at a place that I didn't really relate to the people. And I was doing that thing when you're newly sober of like, I'm different, I'm special, like, oh, I you know, the place that was a little rough, where I went, it was like, well, I have all my teeth still. So I'm still got time to drink. You know what I mean? And and this woman showed up and she was a speaker there and she was really

Steve Keesal (19:33.02)
That

Mike (19:43.492)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:52.364)
Yeah.

Yeah

Lindsay Hiken (20:00.778)
lovely and super cute and she had a thick Irish accent and she ended up being my sponsor but she took one look at me and she said you're in the wrong fucking meeting and I was like huh and she said let's go to Palo Alto and so which is a whole different vibe you know what I mean Palo Alto is not rough you know and and she brought me over there and I'm in there with a bunch of like Stanford professors and Google engineers and I'm like

Mike (20:19.065)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (20:27.018)
in my little weird brain, I'm like, well, these people are better than me. And yet still drunk. But and so I was able to kind of open up my mind and my heart a little bit and hear their stories. And I was like, that's me. That's me. That's me. And being able to relate to what they went through, took the shame out of it as well. Like, OK, I'm not alone in this. And then also just that camaraderie of having to having been through hell.

Mike (20:30.328)
Hahaha

Lindsay Hiken (20:52.574)
and still being alive on the other side was definitely the thing that kind of kept me coming back to the rooms and not taking a drink.

Mike (20:55.308)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (21:00.941)
You know, connection to God and meditation are so important in the tradition that keeps the three of us sober. But I was learning this, this is hysterical. I was learning about eight count breathing from Leslie Martin at the post-traumatic stress disorder outpatient services team.

And anything that is good for us, we're repelled by. Or you try it and it's great, and then you have to be encouraged to try it again, is what I should say. And it worked for me and it was great. And I would start my days with praying on my knees in the morning and at night. And I would start my days with some...

Lindsay Hiken (21:33.294)
Yeah.

Mike (21:37.262)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (21:55.614)
spiritual devotion. I had this where I had the pleasure of speaking at a meeting in Venice and it started. It was, you know, a bunch of painters, you know, with paint on their clothes and artists and that kind of stuff. And it started with 20 minutes of silent meditation. And then I talked and. I felt like so calm and collected while I was talking.

Mike (22:14.222)
Uh-huh.

Steve Keesal (22:25.659)
It was remarkable. And I was going into the first Thanksgiving where I met my now wife's parents and got to know those guys. And so I just kept meditating through that weekend and I've been meditating ever since and I'm not perfect. I'm not a seven days a week guy or even always a five days a week guy. But that really

Mike (22:51.47)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (22:55.066)
mellows you out and takes the anxiety away in a way nothing else does. And it doesn't mean, I want to say this for anyone who's meditating for any reason, is don't think you have to feel calm while you're meditating for the meditation to make you calm. Is that the gospel, right? Yeah, yeah.

Mike (23:04.142)
Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (23:13.644)
Right. That's true. Watching all those.

Mike (23:14.222)
Yeah.

Exactly. That's it. That's it because you you you're riding through those waves. You're riding through those waves a lot of time and you know some people apply maybe an Eastern tradition or idea of what meditation is and that's that is for some people and for some people meditation can just be breathing mindfully and focusing on something or your breath or the feeling of your feet on the ground but

Steve Keesal (23:40.969)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (23:46.52)
that it slows things down and changes you from that fight or flight state into the rest and digest state. And those first few minutes can be hell.

Steve Keesal (23:53.343)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (23:54.36)
doesn't. Yeah. Yes. I've had a lot of people say to me like, well, I can't just, you know, empty my brain. And I was thinking like, and I said to them, like, that's not, no one does. I mean, if you can completely

Steve Keesal (23:57.951)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (24:09.546)
empty your mind of anything. You've got something going on with you. Let's go see a doctor if you can just completely be void of, like, that's not, you know, and you also don't have to sit in the lotus position and you don't have to have your fingers in a certain way, you know, that means something in the Buddhist tradition or, or what have you. But I'm with you, Steven. I just wanted to say really quickly, I

Mike (24:15.512)
Yeah, you've probably had a lobotomy.

Yeah.

Mike (24:25.923)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (24:34.23)
currently also have a bad back. have a herniated disc in my lower back and I have bursitis in my right hip. And to hear you talk about, okay, just meditate and go for a walk, you know, is great for me because I've right now in this state of

What we refer to in AA is luxury problems. you know, I was a really pretty low bottom drunk and I forget because it was 21 years ago, you know, and so right now I'm like, I'm not going to be able to do that race I wanted to do. And, I wanted to start running again. And now look what's happening and pour me. And, you know, I'm not doing anything. like, I'm not I'm just not really moving my body. I sit at my desk a lot for work. And then I'm like, my fricking back hurts and this is bullshit and blah. And I.

Mike (25:00.772)
Ahem.

Steve Keesal (25:20.128)
Were you embarrassed to stand at your desk? I was embarrassed to stand at my desk.

Lindsay Hiken (25:23.118)
I'm at home, so I'm standing up. But yes, it's weird when you're in the office to stand up. Because as an accountant, there are a lot of people who never, they just don't move their bodies, you know what I mean? And so.

Mike (25:34.092)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (25:37.068)
I'll be in an office and everyone's quiet. No one's saying anything and everyone's sitting at their desk and here goes my desk as I'm up to the top. But I appreciate you saying that because I'm like, that's right. I just need to do a few simple things and I will feel better. I'll feel calm, you know.

Mike (25:46.105)
Yeah.

Mike (25:59.716)
Yes, yes, yeah. I know there's both things. You know, like we, think we talked about it last week, Lindsay, was just movement and, and stillness. Movement and stillness.

Steve Keesal (26:12.513)
So tying those things together, because I had a little bit of a thought earlier on that. this is interesting that the movement and the stillness. I always tell people that when people get a massage, one of the reasons it's relaxing is people are awake, they're aware and they're not broadcasting or they're not scheming in their mind. They're just there.

and present. And this is what exercise does as well. When you see someone struggling in a you guys are all serious. I've done a few half marathons and some 10 K's. That's the most distance running and you know, a couple years out of the army and you don't want to be getting fat. And so what could focus you on running? So let's do a half marathon, you know.

Mike (26:42.328)
Yes.

Mike (27:04.408)
Hahaha.

Steve Keesal (27:08.459)
But the interesting thing about it is when you're doing these things, you got to remind people that this is their time just to themselves. And you have to look at that. It's really beautiful when you're out running or when you're doing some sort of long, you know, and I'm not a swimmer or a biker, you know, but when you're out doing these things, this is

This is solitude and this is time for you to just let the thoughts go by like newspaper or tumbleweeds on the wind. And that's why this stuff is so excellent to us. Even if you let's say we're lifting weights or something like that. Now you're you're you're concentrating on something kind of like concentrating on painting or something like that. You know, where you're just able to

Mike (27:47.982)
Yes.

Mike (28:03.512)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (28:08.141)
kind of not be connected to scheming or thinking or what's the next thing I should be doing and so on and so forth. And that's really important to us.

Mike (28:16.608)
Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (28:20.21)
Scheming is a great word because my brain loves the scheme on stuff, know, instead of just thinking about it.

Mike (28:22.692)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (28:26.604)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike (28:26.751)
Mm-hmm. One of the things I wanted to go back to, you know, post-traumatic stress and what made it so difficult for me and a lot of people I've talked to is that I didn't have the vocabulary for what was happening to me. I just, it was chaos and I didn't even have the word chaos to describe it. I was hypervigilant. I was irritated.

All of these things and nothing I could not scratch that itch no matter how many beers I drank or how many joints I smoked.

Steve Keesal (29:04.676)
So this is the greatest thing that I realized is like the fear model. And it's interesting because I still say jokingly, but as a half truth to people is like, I'm always afraid. it's kind of less things are scary. But with the hyper vigilance.

Mike (29:12.035)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:29.784)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (29:33.775)
And then the fear model, which shows me that whenever I'm angry, somewhere underneath that is an underlying fear. And I realized that I'm dealing with the fear maybe differently than most people do. And I am preconditioned for a preemptive strike.

Mike (29:38.83)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:46.146)
Yes.

Mike (29:53.966)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (29:59.747)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (30:00.611)
If I think something is happening, you know, I'm a machine gunner by trade. So if something is, if there's a threat that's way out on the horizon or way out there, I want to be the first to get rid of it. You know, and you go through life this way and you realize that you're causing more problems that you're solving. And, you know, that idea of, of, of, of,

Mike (30:05.144)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (30:13.817)
Yeah.

Mike (30:23.888)
yeah.

Steve Keesal (30:30.489)
You know, and it comes down to it. There's a lot of things that I enjoy that I had to get control of myself before I could enjoy because, you know, I don't need to be, you know, that vigilant all the time. I don't need to be that switched on all the time. And another way I tell people and I tell this to folks who are coming out of.

Mike (30:40.302)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (30:47.78)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (30:59.524)
of our lifestyle or other lifestyles that were deeply connected to violence. And I think being a Marine or being an Airborne Ranger is to embrace that part of human nature. Okay, that's what we're here to do. I remember a chaplain telling us when we arrived at the 75th Ranger Regiment that, you know, this is a place where we're killing people.

Mike (31:06.478)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (31:27.894)
And if you have ever pictured yourself as living that way, you're in the right place. And if you don't think this is for you, then you're definitely not in the right place. This is a chaplain, you know? Yeah. He had beautiful pale gray eyes, you know, looked like he was the head welder for a motorcycle club. You know what I mean?

Mike (31:38.756)
Yeah, right. This is Chaplin. Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (31:39.192)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (31:54.702)
Huh?

Mike (31:55.012)
you

Steve Keesal (31:56.517)
It was wonderful. you know, you get this.

You have.

skills which are totally not applicable and you have to be ready to get rid of those. It's really important to remind ourselves, to remind our friends and to remind people who are just starting on the journey that there's a whole set of things which you developed which

Mike (32:16.142)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (32:35.675)
which don't, you know, let's talk about the newscaster who used to be in the National Football League. And, you know, being able to throw footballs is no longer a necessary skill set. It's neat that he knows about it so he could tell other people about it. But it's just something you don't have to be able to do anymore.

Mike (32:59.426)
Yeah, those skills were for wartime for combat for violence and conflict. So we get back and we forget some of those things. The obvious things like, you know, shooting throwing grenades were like, okay, probably not applicable in the civilian world. But the other things like assaulting through an ambush perceived or real, or, you know, snapping on somebody that like those preemptive strikes, like you talking about wartime, great peace time, civilian time, not great.

Steve Keesal (33:03.311)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (33:17.732)
huh.

Lindsay Hiken (33:28.014)
And that's different from someone who has some sort of trauma from civilian activity. It seems like a little bit because I'll just, excuse me, I'll just speak for myself. You one of the things that happened when I was drinking is that I...

Steve Keesal (33:29.766)
See

Lindsay Hiken (33:47.51)
hung around a lot of lower companions, know, my drinking looks better because theirs is so bad. And one of those people stabbed me in the chest and left me for dead. And I obviously didn't die. But that's a trauma that I carry with me despite having gone through therapy for it and things like that.

So for me, I don't really feel like I developed any skills that were useful. I just have this like lingering, you know, I just had this lingering trauma. But some of the hallmarks of that trauma sounds similar to what you guys are talking about in terms of hypervigilance and being sort of a fear based individual. I would say I was not a fear based individual prior to this happening. And I can acknowledge I played a role in it because I knew I was being stalked and I still was drinking and like,

Mike (34:27.502)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (34:41.316)
not locking my doors and just like passing out in my apartment and doing things that are behaviors when you have a lot of self loathing, which is what I was experiencing. But I think some of the trauma response sounds a lot like what you guys are experiencing, although there isn't any place in which my response to that is was useful, if that makes sense.

Mike (35:00.324)
Yeah.

Mike (35:05.72)
Well, difference is, Lindsay, is I understand this. The trauma response is the same in terms of hyper arousal, hyper vigilance, irritation and avoidance, and then sometimes dissociation. However, the difference with veterans and other people in violent lifestyles is that we're trained being angry and aggressive is the way to go. And so that training...

Kicked in the fight and flight right and so we're like go to what you know. Here we go. We're fighting Why I don't know but it feels like I'm in danger even though it's not there. We're acting on something That happened in the past that's still in our body, but we're fighting ghosts essentially

Lindsay Hiken (35:45.582)
And I'm freezing, you know, I'm just freezing is my my response to that is to just not be able to be paralyzed with fear and not be able to do one thing or the other. Neither one of those is particularly helpful when you're trying to live your life, I will say.

Mike (35:55.993)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (36:01.608)
Yes. So what Mike is specifically referring to are what we would call battle drills. you have to you have to have a few things where are they're so well rehearsed and so set in your in your primitive brain that the minute that you have a reckoning that this is what the situation is, you immediately go into this motion, oftentimes as a group. Right. And

Mike (36:07.778)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (36:31.482)
And that is, is, you know, instinctive. And what what the first thing I learned about, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder is that these things which which, you know, to the anxiety or the acute anxiety, they go straight into your primitive brain.

And so you're not thinking about it. This is this is just you just immediately are are in in in action mode, you know, and and and I'm I'm sure it's the same for you or anyone who's who's who's had these these experiences that that that change us, you know. Yeah.

Mike (37:06.968)
Yes.

Mike (37:21.508)
Correct. Yeah, it's the way to go. It's you're right. Those when you're having a trauma reaction, you're not thinking about like Steve is saying, it's not going in your head like, huh, this feels dangerous or any thoughts like that. It's skipping that prefrontal cortex and going right to the stem, right to the, the limbic system too. And you are just noticing and your body is involuntarily reacting.

Lindsay Hiken (37:48.718)
So what can be done when you're in that situation? You know what I mean? When you've got the primitive brain activated, because I've heard you guys describe ways to deal with the energy that's there, exercising and meditating. But what happens when you're in sort of an acute instance of the PTSD? Or how do you get out of it, I should say?

Mike (37:56.28)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (38:15.973)
That's a very tough question. I mean, think the first thing that would come out of anyone's mouth is to remove yourself from the situation. And that's very difficult with people like us, because I think we're not people who were very dedicated. don't want to, you know, and occasionally we'll find a friend who has their

Mike (38:38.52)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (38:45.704)
head in their ass and trying to, you know, try to extricate them from that situation is very difficult because, you know, they're in a hundred percent, you know, with whatever they do. But getting out of

Mike (38:53.358)
Yeah.

Mike (39:04.332)
Right. We're the run towards the bullets kind of guys. you know, the we're running away might be the right answer, but removing yourself from the situation.

Steve Keesal (39:16.49)
So sometimes, you know, sometimes it takes a friend to, you know, just get you out of there, you know?

Mike (39:20.953)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (39:24.76)
Yeah. Make an eye contact sometimes just with someone who is, who's out of it, who can, who can lead you out through some breathing, walking, talking, deescalating the situation. I mean, long-term, things like EMDR, or other trauma therapies that, that help reset the nervous system. Yeah.

Steve Keesal (39:27.283)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (39:43.422)
All of it works. All of it works. There's nothing people are doing to help people. Every one of the methods anyone has ever tried is helpful. I didn't mean to interrupt you, Mike. But, you know, I think it's important. You know, I hear people talking about, you know, treating post-traumatic stress with, you know, hallucinogenic drugs and that kind of stuff. And I think and.

Mike (39:56.93)
No, you're right.

Steve Keesal (40:11.627)
That to me is not something that makes sense inherently, but every sort of technique for helping people, I think, works. Everything from the rapid eye movement to all of it.

Mike (40:32.259)
Yeah.

Mike (40:38.5)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (40:40.267)
All of it has helped a lot of people. I want to say one thing that's interesting because I'm not sure exactly that I've ever had great success helping people in that moment. But I've had a lot of success talking with my friends and helping them in general. And one of the key things is not to make love to your problems.

Lindsay Hiken (41:09.58)
Mm.

Steve Keesal (41:09.705)
Okay, so this is what screwed up with me and do I want to own this diagnosis or do I want to carry that with me when it's not helpful? And the important thing is to be able to get to work and to be able to want to change and then to start changing. And then right in the middle,

Mike (41:09.752)
Yeah.

Mike (41:21.209)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (41:38.868)
of doing something that you know is not the person you wanna be, saying, okay, there's no reason that this detail matters to anybody, except me. Because one of the things that post-traumatic stress disorder or post-operational stress, it's not Rambo going crazy in the...

Mike (41:52.26)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (42:08.748)
in the sporting goods store with the cops surrounding him. that kind of stuff. We've all had our wild incidents and I don't discount those at all. But it's really about. A feeling of anxiety that you can pass on to other people and not wanting to do that anymore. One of the fascinating things I heard at the West L.A. VA is they said

Mike (42:12.792)
Yeah.

Mike (42:29.124)
Yeah.

Mike (42:33.806)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (42:38.838)
West Los Angeles, which has a high, the giant Jewish population is a place where private practice studied post-traumatic stress disorder because grandparents who were Holocaust survivors were affecting their grandkids. You know? And it's like, okay, this is something that, you you have to, you have to

Mike (42:58.595)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (43:06.177)
to work on and be able to let go. You don't want those things around and you have to make sure that you continue to change or address or just let go of the things that aren't helpful.

Mike (43:26.85)
Yeah. And one thing I'll say to bring it full circle here. It's like we talked about the importance of talking with other people who understand or other people you were there with in the moment. I believe that's been the most effective thing that's helped me and the most right. That I've done with other people. Cause when you make contact, eye contact with someone who's struggling and you are in a calmer state, they can mirror that.

Steve Keesal (43:41.439)
A thousand percent right. Absolutely right.

Mike (43:55.468)
or they can say, okay, you know, their, their body can slow down a little bit, just like when you're, know, on the battlefield and, and, and someone's starting to get a little stressed out, you know, they look at someone who's got that cool, calm, collected look and they're like, I think we got this, we're here together.

Lindsay Hiken (43:55.926)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (43:57.389)
Mm-hmm.

Steve Keesal (44:11.917)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Hiken (44:12.61)
That's what I do on the airplane because I'm horrible with turbulence and I'm like looking at the, not to make light of it, but I'm looking at the flight attendant and like, well, she seems to still be serving coffee. So I guess I'm just going to calm down. You know what I mean? And, and that.

Mike (44:19.062)
Yeah.

Mike (44:23.276)
Yeah, it's, it's the whole reason having my dog at work with me, my train therapy dog calms people down because they see like, okay, I'm having a bad day. I'm walking into this vet center or this VA and I'm having a bad day. I'm, I'm feeling like I am in danger because I'm hyper aroused. And you see this dog who's just wagging his tail, walking up to you to get pet and your nervous system starts to

Lindsay Hiken (44:29.006)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (44:51.148)
And your brain says, well, maybe things are actually OK a little bit. And I can relax just a little bit. Yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (44:58.584)
So.

Steve Keesal (44:58.988)
It's example we can draw on, yeah.

Lindsay Hiken (45:01.258)
Absolutely. It is time for us to wrap it up, you guys. And this has been such a fascinating conversation. I could talk all day, but I'm sure the listeners are like, my commute's over. Could you wrap her up? Yeah, I think we're going to need a part three.

Mike (45:12.737)
Hahaha

We definitely need a part three, I think.

Steve Keesal (45:18.126)
I sure love talking with you guys and I love the subject matter. I love focusing on the mind, body and soul stuff. You know, things that we can do to get the most out of life and, you know, sharing life experience and, you know, optimizing our feelings. But, you know, but by action.

Lindsay Hiken (45:42.36)
Mm-hmm. Well,

Mike (45:43.224)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (45:46.766)
by action.

Lindsay Hiken (45:47.074)
We had you on and we talked a lot about the first time about working out and moving your body and doing all those things. Now we've had you on talking about the mind. So we are gonna have to do part three talking about the soul. I think that would be an interesting conversation. I'm sure all three of us have a technique and methodology and belief system. So there are similarities and then there's differences in that. And I think that that would be a great conversation.

Mike (45:59.812)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (46:13.976)
Yes.

Lindsay Hiken (46:15.51)
Mike, any last words before we shut her down?

Mike (46:19.118)
couple things just for people listening who has brought up any feelings in you and you're having some feelings. One number as a veteran you can always call is 988. That's the crisis line. If you need to talk to somebody and you're just not feeling okay, 988. Just give them a call. And you know, there are people at local VA's and vet centers which are part of the VA.

that you can go and talk to, you know, that, that have some experience, maybe not the same experience you've had because your experience is individual, but given it, given it a shot. And that's what really what turned my life around to, is I had a Vietnam vet. Yeah. I had a Vietnam vet bring me to a vet center and said, you know, you kind of look fucked up. Like I did a nom after I got back, you're to go and talk to these people. And, and I didn't want to, but I trusted this guy.

Steve Keesal (47:03.855)
That's absolutely right.

Mike (47:17.233)
And you know what, despite my best efforts, it worked. I felt a lot better.

Lindsay Hiken (47:20.494)
Well, thank you so much. and I hear Mike's kids and Mike has to make them breakfast. So I know that that's our that is our our time when those kids start yelling. It's like we're done. So everybody, please. I want to say thank you to Steve for coming on again. It was a pleasure. Listeners, if you wouldn't mind. I mean, we're to have you back for sure.

Mike (47:25.964)
Yeah, they're ready.

Steve Keesal (47:28.483)
Alright.

Mike (47:33.24)
Yeah.

Steve Keesal (47:34.094)
Alright.

Steve Keesal (47:41.359)
Pleasure is all mine.

Lindsay Hiken (47:46.53)
Listeners, if you don't mind reviewing and giving us stars, we would like five stars from you, but whatever it is, say it, you know, say the truth and we'll take any feedback and share the podcast with someone you think who, you know, would enjoy it or could use the feedback. All righty, we will see you guys next week. Bye.

Mike (48:08.836)
See ya.

Steve Keesal (48:08.905)
Thank you for having me.