Kelly Catlin writes Kurt Cobain: Forever in Bloom

Summary

In this episode of the Ginger and Chocolate podcast, host Mike interviews Kelly Catlin about her book 'Forever in Bloom,' which explores the life and legacy of Kurt Cobain. Kelly shares her journey of writing the book, her motivations to challenge the negative narratives surrounding Cobain, and the importance of mental health awareness. The conversation delves into personal stories of loss, the impact of Cobain on others, and the need for a more positive remembrance of those who have struggled with mental health issues. Kelly emphasizes the significance of community support and the preventability of suicide, aiming to inspire readers to foster understanding and compassion.

Buy Kelly's book: Kurt Cobain: Forever in Bloom

Takeaways

• Kelly Catlin spent two and a half years writing 'Forever in Bloom' about Kurt Cobain.
• The book aims to celebrate Cobain's life rather than focus solely on his death.
• Media sensationalism often overshadows the positive aspects of Cobain's legacy.
• Mental health struggles are universal, and Cobain's story can resonate with many.
• The book includes personal anecdotes and reflections on loss and memory.
• Community support is crucial in addressing mental health issues.
• Kelly's personal experience with loss drives her passion for mental health advocacy.
• The book features interviews with people who knew Cobain and highlights his impact on their lives.
• Kelly emphasizes that suicide is preventable and encourages open discussions about mental health.
• The book aims to inspire readers to remember the positive contributions of those who have passed.

Titles

• Kurt Cobain: A Celebration of Life
• Mental Health and the Legacy of Kurt Cobain

Sound Bites

• "It's sensationalism."
• "Suicide is preventable."
• "There's always hope."

Keywords

Kurt Cobain, Kelly Catlin, mental health, suicide awareness, Forever in Bloom, music, legacy, grief, community support, mental health resources

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Transcript

Mike (00:01.313)
Hey everybody, I am Mike and I'm here for Ginger and Chocolate podcast and today Lindsay's out, but we have very special guest, Kelly Catlin, and we are gonna be talking about her book. Kelly, welcome to the show.

Kelly Catlin (00:14.67)
Hi, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Mike (00:16.993)
Yeah, we've been talking off and on the last week and a half. I'm really excited to sit down for the show and talk with you about your book. That's right around the corner coming out. Yeah. So I'm telling you, you're doing some nonstop last minute stuff and that's seems to be always the case with a big project in the book. Yeah. So once you can you tell us about

Kelly Catlin (00:21.662)
Thank you.

Kelly Catlin (00:37.324)
Yeah, absolutely. Always.

Mike (00:43.159)
Forever in Bloom and your work and how you came to write this book.

Kelly Catlin (00:48.76)
Sure, absolutely. So I just spent, wanted to say the past two years, but it's going on about two and a half years now, because there's always something to still do. Working with Kurt Cobain's friends, fellow Seattle grunge musicians, Nirvana's managers, record label executives, recording engineers, to put together this 500 page celebration of Kurt's life and work.

Mike (01:16.823)
Hmm.

Kelly Catlin (01:17.578)
And I just, didn't do it as some, you know, like crazed fan. I love Nirvana. I actually, I didn't really know much about the band or even Kurt Cobain before doing this. I did it because every time you read something, you know, in the news about him, because he's, he really is trending often Kurt Cobain, especially, you know, this past April, because that was the 30th anniversary of his suicide. it was always very maudlin and very depressed, everything around him.

And I did lose a family member, Walter, to suicide and he loved Nirvana. And I wanted to write something, you know, positive and celebratory that was uplifting and reminded people that, you know, people are not defined by their depression or their mental health struggles or their, you know, different statuses in life. And that I just felt that Kurt Cobain was a good person to use as the vehicle for this book.

because of how much you see his depression really just amplified in the media. So that was basically the past, yeah, this is the last two and a half years of my life working on this book. So.

Mike (02:19.905)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (02:26.539)
Yeah, so it's obviously, like you said, a passion project and something you care deeply about. And it's so interesting to dive into the cross-section of music and mental health. you're right. I think a lot of people do look at Kurt Cobain's life and define it by the end, the tragic suicide at the end. And it's all they see. Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (02:32.174)
100%.

Kelly Catlin (02:52.823)
all they see.

Mike (02:56.243)
And do you, through working on this, do you have any insights as to why that is, why we look at it that way?

Kelly Catlin (03:02.784)
It's sensationalism. mean, his friends have said that to the book. It's what gets clicks at what's it's what turns heads. It's what gets attention. You know what I mean? I think it's like if you had a Google News feed and two different articles came up, which one are you most likely to click on? Cobain. Remember that time Kurt Cobain helped deliver kittens or remember that time Kurt Cobain got, you know, really high on stage and peed in a shoe. You know what I mean? Like

Mike (03:05.348)
and

Mike (03:11.767)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (03:30.956)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (03:31.81)
These are real things. And I say the kittens thing because it's a story in my book. And I think people want that. They want that that hyped up sensationalized story. But when you have somebody like Kurt Cobain, who is really idolized by so many young people, I think that now now this is going back a little bit, but I do know in 2006, Forbes had named him the highest earning dead celebrity. mean, he had beat Elvis and

Mike (04:00.567)
Wow.

Kelly Catlin (04:01.268)
back then his estate was worth half a billion dollars. I mean, that just shows you, you know, not even Nirvana's impact because I think he got like something like 75 % of the royalties or something like that just shows you like his impact and how, you know, big he still is. And when you've got these young people that look up to him, I think it's really doing them a disservice to just push the same

Mike (04:17.975)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (04:31.15)
tired narrative. Like there are so many autopsies of his life and a lot of the things that come out about him are not the most positive and you know there's the conspiracy theories and people are justice recurred and they all they do is they it's this romanticism around his death and you know whatever people are always going to have opinions on things and I think especially with suicide because that one's a tough pill to swallow and a lot of people have a hard time accepting that somebody

Mike (04:49.825)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (05:01.294)
especially someone they idolize could do that. So, but to me though, you've still got this man who had such a profound impact and still continues to have such a profound impact across so many different groups and to sit here and to make his entire legacy about his death, that's just not how we should remember people. know, and I understand people who write things, everybody's entitled to an opinion and I am too. And to me,

Mike (05:21.739)
Mm-hmm

Kelly Catlin (05:29.53)
you know, Walter, my family member who we lost to suicide, I don't choose to remember him for his death. And I know that's tough. And for some people, you know, when people, die in a violent manner, I think, especially to it's, easy to sit there and to forget about the good. Is that those last moments, the phone call of what somebody did, it can be so jarring, but

Mike (05:48.513)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (05:55.022)
really what we need to do for our loved ones or for people who've inspired us or for people we idolize is to remember the positivity they set forth in the world or in one person's life. And I think that's the best legacy. And we just don't see that enough with Cobain. And we also forget that he has a daughter who has to see these things in the media. There's a grandchild now. And I just, I knew if I wrote something coming out of left field about mental health and about suicide, people might be like,

Mike (06:07.809)
Yeah.

Mike (06:14.167)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (06:24.948)
Who are you? should we care? But when I say, hey, I'm exploring Kurt Cobain's life, suicide, depression, this is why you need to care. And that seems like it's gotten people's attention to kind of want to have an open and honest discussion where we can remove the stigma around suicide, the stigma around talking about mental health. And that was really my whole goal with the book to kind of challenge what people thought they knew about him and to use that information on a more global scale.

Mike (06:54.06)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (06:55.182)
this man, know, arguably in 1993, 1994, 1992, the most famous musician on the planet. If he could suffer with these profound mental health issues, depression that ultimately led him to take his life. And he did that, you know, on the world stage. Imagine what your neighbor is going through, what your friend is going through, you know what I mean? So I think we just need to kind of re-examine all the ways that maybe he didn't get the help that he needed.

Mike (07:15.681)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (07:23.926)
and apply that to the rest of the population. So I just felt it was a book as tough as it was to write and depressing. It's still a celebration of life. It was still hard to write though. I just felt I did need to do it. So no regrets with that.

Mike (07:27.766)
you

Mike (07:33.77)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, a lot to unpack. I think, you know, going back to what you said about how we can remember people for their final act, especially if it's a final and death is, the way I understand that is, you know, it, makes sense to me because our nervous system has taken over and we are in shock that somebody would choose, um, or would ultimately decide to end their life because it's, it's

it goes against the normal or regular drive to stay alive and survive.

Kelly Catlin (08:13.388)
Social contract, that's what someone said to me. It's like they're breaking a social contract that no matter how hard it is, you can't do this. You have to tough it out with the rest of us.

Mike (08:17.538)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (08:22.687)
Right, because then it makes us think about existential questions and, you know, what happens after we die and all these things come up. And so the work that you're doing and that a lot of people are doing to help change that, I think, narrative of people lived a whole life before this happened. And perhaps some of these deeds count.

Kelly Catlin (08:46.766)
That's what I want to take away from this. And it's the same, I was just thinking when you said, you know, it's like a nervous system shock. I remember when my husband called me and told me that Walter had died and, know, it was a beautiful afternoon. It was a Thursday, it was July. I had been married a month. You know, I wasn't a mom yet. So I was able to, cause I think once you become a parent, you know, you don't have the time to really sit and like reflect and process as much. you know, have kids to take care of and

Mike (09:11.97)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (09:15.638)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (09:15.788)
All these two things to do. But my husband called me and told me, and it was just a thing that I couldn't process, especially because it was Walter who was so funny and so charismatic. And he would really be, I think, the last person that any of us would have ever thought would have done something like that because of how funny he was and because he was the go-to person if somebody was having a hard time. So, you know, again,

Mike (09:34.337)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (09:43.018)
there's that shock. He was young, he was 33, he was veteran marine, and we did know that there was, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder, but not to the extent where he would.

do that. And you stop and you evaluate and you think about your life and everything in a moment like that. when I, the whole thing with Cobain was actually, it during the pandemic. everybody's kind of like isolated, you're stuck, you can't do anything. And I went out and I can't remember what we were doing. And I came home and I'm outside in the driveway and I just hear Nirvana blasting. And again,

Mike (10:22.25)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (10:22.87)
I'm not a fan of the band. Now I think they're incredible, but I knew very little of the band. I knew like, you know, it smells like Teen Spirit. And here Nirvana blasting and I'm like, where? And the kid across the street from me and I'm like, you guys listen to this? I mean, like kid, like, you know, 20 years old. Yeah, we all listen to them screaming trees, we listen to them. I'm like, now I feel old, you know.

Mike (10:41.047)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (10:50.094)
I go inside and I'm baking cookies with my kid and later in the afternoon I go, you know, Alexa play, play, you know, smells like team spirit. And it must have tripped some algorithm in Google because now like Cobain and Nirvana is like flooding my, my Google feed. Right. And it's all super depressed, super maudlin. And then it's like, I see this article and I think it was like a broke at one of Cobain's like 8,000 guitars was up for auction. And it said, uh,

Mike (11:05.613)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (11:19.382)
a broken guitar, the broken musician. And it just pissed me off reading that. And it was just, it was almost as if these media outlets didn't care that he was a person. You know, he was just this monolith at this point. And it was like, had that been Walter? Had Walter been famous? I think I would have been fuming to know that media outlets were just so like callous with the, with their descriptors. A hundred percent.

Mike (11:24.247)
Hmm, yeah.

Mike (11:44.579)
and just commoditized his tragedy.

Kelly Catlin (11:48.876)
And it just felt like that. And it just to me really, really bothered me. And I mean, I went into this with like zero industry connections. I'm not a journalist. didn't go to school for journalism. I was a special ed teacher before I left to be a stay at home mom. I mean, I have been writing for a long time for a bunch of outlets, but never anything like a book, nor did I ever want to write a book. But I just felt that strongly about this. And I started.

Mike (11:57.729)
Mm.

Kelly Catlin (12:16.566)
sending emails to bands out in Seattle telling people, hey, I'm going to write something about Gert Cobain. It's going to be positive and I'm going to donate, you know, at least half my profits to charity. it took, most people were quick to want to be part of it. Some people were hesitant. They'd felt that other writers, you know, throughout the decades had kind of promised them the world in terms of

Mike (12:44.897)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (12:45.678)
Yeah, how they were going to write about Kurt and that once they actually read something, they felt their words were twisted or, this isn't the Kurt that I remember. So was an uphill battle getting people to agree to do it. But like once they did, I don't know, it just snowballed into a really nice, I think, reflection of who he was, how his death could have been prevented.

Mike (12:56.918)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (13:12.906)
and how so many of his struggles I think were just universal and that's what makes him so relatable.

Mike (13:17.837)
Speaking of things that are universal in the struggle with mental health, you said something I thought was very poignant. If someone on the world stage who had so much going for them is going through that, what about your neighbor or the person you know in your everyday life? And I think, yeah, it's glossed over. I haven't read the book yet, and I'm excited for when it comes out to read it and purchase it.

Kelly Catlin (13:34.338)
This gets glossed over.

Mike (13:45.053)
One thing that I think about too is, I work in mental health, but it still makes me think, okay, I don't know what someone else is going through and to judge them based on maybe an appearance or what I think is only my preconceived notion. And a lot of times people who are struggling are used to struggling. And so they put on a face that shows that they're okay. It's because they don't want to alarm other people.

Kelly Catlin (14:11.31)
I think that was him and his some of his friends have said that too in the book just kind of how they don't like the media's portrayal of him is I think someone said the media portrayed him as just another crass drug addict and they said that couldn't have been further you know from the truth. When you stop and take the time to really learn who he was

Mike (14:21.157)
you

Kelly Catlin (14:38.41)
and to apply the things that he went through to where other people go through. When I was doing the research, think the numbers are, I think there's like 700,000 unhoused adolescents just in America. mean, that's a horrible, mind-blowing statistic. And he was one of them. There was a lot of issues between his parents growing up. They divorced when he was young.

Mike (14:53.399)
Mm-hmm. Wow.

Kelly Catlin (15:05.908)
Mom wanted to kind go out and do her own thing. Dad got remarried. Kurt got passed back and forth from relative to relative to relative. And then he was basically unhoused in his teens. And for me, that one hits home because when I was a classroom teacher, I did work with a lot of disadvantaged children and some of them were unhoused. there seems to be a lot of confusion over what

unhoused is and people be like, well, where are they, know, pitch tent, they're outside. No, like that's, it's a lack of a permanent residence. And to me, know, you've, Cobain, you've got this kid for all intents and purposes who, you know, came from, you know, this kind of socially disadvantaged, know, socio economically disadvantaged town. he's on house, he's passed from relative to relative. you know, he's got all these kinds of

Mike (15:43.5)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (16:03.584)
issues working against him. Clearly, you know, there's some depression going on and think of the sensation that he still became. That kind of fame doesn't just land in your lap. Like you do have to work for that. There is a level of tenacity. I mean, yes, I'm sure there's certain extensive like, you know, matter of the perfect storm kind of, you know, you had these this generation that was feeling a certain way and was ready for a spokesperson and he was, you know, right place, right time. But

Mike (16:07.83)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (16:32.876)
there were other big bands too. And for Nirvana and him especially to be that big, I mean, he pushed for that. And think of that level of tenacity despite the mental health issues. And then on top of it, we knew he had stomach problems which were undiagnosed and to this day it's still speculated what it was. I think they think maybe IBS, IBD, maybe a little psychosomatic issues going on there, but.

that he still had this tenacity and drive and then to take it even a step further when he did get famous and he was, you know, this international rock star, he could have done anything with that platform. He didn't have to settle down and have a child. He didn't have to drive a Volvo. I mean, he could have been able to drive, you know, shop at secondhand stores. He could have been anybody and done anything.

Mike (17:17.676)
Right.

Kelly Catlin (17:24.622)
But that wasn't who he was. He chose to play shows like Cow Palace, which was a benefit show for Bosnian rape victims where I think they raised like $50,000 for these women. And that was spearheaded by bassist Chris Novicellich. you have Nirvana, played No On 9, a benefit show in solidarity of gay rights. They played the Me as a Patta benefit concert when Me as a Patta lead singer of the Gits.

was walking home one night after a gig and was raped and murdered. Nirvana was there, didn't hesitate to be part of that, to raise money to catch her killer. This was just, and not just Cobain, but the band, but him too. mean, even when you listen to him in interviews or the liner notes of incesticide, he was very clear about hating the fact that they were racist homophobes, misogynists in the audience. This was a man who

Mike (17:57.911)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (18:19.51)
would have destroyed his career if it meant that's what he needed to do to say the things that he felt. He wasn't a sellout. And you think how many people are comfortable in their own skin now because of him? We don't focus on that. And I think a lot of people wanted me to get as many explosive names as possible for my book. And I do think I have some really great people in the book, but.

Mike (18:34.145)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (18:45.934)
I do have a section that's just an independent section and it's all indie artists. So might not be, you know, musicians that people are, know, hyper aware of. But I did that for a reason, because I wanted to know how did Cobain help you maybe, you know, with your career trajectory just in life. And the stories that I heard from people were incredible. I have, you know, one musician who's from England and his band was

pretty popular over there. There was an issue. The band was canceled. It had nothing to do with him. But he's telling me about how his home life and how he doesn't have a father and how he always saw Cobain as this metaphorical kind of surrogate father. And his words taught him and helped him through a drug problem. And it's mind blowing. And that was just one of many stories like that.

Mike (19:31.373)
Hmm.

Kelly Catlin (19:41.706)
I have a trans writer, a trans woman writer in the book who tells me about growing up, you know, in a household where obviously she wasn't accepted for who she was and the names that she was called and the abuse that she sustained and how listening to Kurt Cobain's words to come as you are made her feel empowered to be the woman that she is and, you know, saved her from herself and so many stories like that. And it's like, why don't you hear more about this?

Mike (20:00.705)
Hmm.

Kelly Catlin (20:09.566)
know, why is this the stuff that's relegated to the footnotes while his suicide and his depression and his drug use is, you know, on the forefront of conversation? Like, everybody knows Kurt Cobain had a drug problem. Everybody knows how Kurt Cobain died, but we don't know how he's still enacting widespread societal change. So.

Mike (20:26.731)
Yeah, yeah. And especially with the drug use, I mean, people can look at that. And if they only dug down maybe two or three inches below the surface would see that, well, why do people use drugs? You know, why, why are they using what's going on in their life that has caused them to take an exogenous source of dopamine to feel better?

Kelly Catlin (20:53.026)
And he was very private with it too. So this wasn't like he was, you know, that, that, that stereotypical rock star life where I'm just going to be out at the bars and the clubs until all hours. Like he was private about it. and it's, I think that we don't care enough to see maybe, like you said, two to three inches below the surface. To me, I mean, I have my own thoughts on it. I think about how we grew up, you know, being on Houzz like that, we knew we had stomach issues.

Mike (20:54.773)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (21:21.294)
how many Americans are uninsured, underinsured. And I think to myself, was this a lack of affordable healthcare? Maybe he couldn't get proper medications, proper diagnosis for stomach issues, for depression, drugs maybe were the... I don't know, I'm not sure, but I think there's more to it than what we allow it to be. We allow it to be that we'll curve our way just to drugs. Okay, but do we want to, if we're not gonna learn...

Mike (21:46.527)
Mm-hmm

Kelly Catlin (21:49.036)
why what the impetus was for these actions of his down to the depression and his suicide. I mean, we just can't do better in helping people and just painting people off as destined to join, the 27 club, which I hate that. I hate that. And I've read that and seen that more times than I can shake a stick at that. Cobain, you just knew he was one of these people that was going to know it really your middle name most Nostradamus. You just knew. I don't believe that. That to me puts

Mike (22:16.745)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (22:18.904)
people with depression in a category that says that, we just can't help them. And I don't subscribe to that at all. So I think suicide is preventable.

Mike (22:19.469)
Hmm

Mike (22:26.635)
Yeah, Yeah, definitely. And then I guess we also would benefit by looking at the services available in the early to mid 90s for mental health and the stigma that was there intensely. It's lessened now, right? Compared to today.

Kelly Catlin (22:32.003)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (22:39.106)
Yeah.

compared to today. Yeah, so much different. mean, and you think too, because some people in my book kind of put their impartial opinions in some people who from that scene, but maybe weren't close with him, said, you know, there was plenty of money to put him somewhere to put him somewhere for a long time to make sure he got the help he needed. And I think the argument is, well, you know, we tried 12 step programs and he was in and out of rehab and

the week that he had gone missing, the week that he ultimately took his life, he was in Exodus Recovery Center. But to me, I'm like, but what was he in for? Because he was in because he had a drug problem. I'm like, what were we doing to combat the depression? And there really is that stigma with suicide and mental health. Even today, you see it and you think, and this is through a 2025 lens. mean, imagine how it was through a 92, 93, 94 lens.

Mike (23:25.101)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (23:33.719)
Yeah.

Mike (23:37.601)
Right, yeah.

Kelly Catlin (23:38.53)
And you're that famous and you can't go out and you can't be a normal person anymore. And people are in your business and people, mean, he clearly was a very private, know, very, he cared about his image. He really did. And at one point, some people had made some comments through their opinion out there, their opinions out there about him and Courtney. And it basically,

led to them very temporarily losing custody of their child. And it was, obviously she was given back to them right away because the comments wound up being disqualified. But to think that you could be that level of famous, that somebody could write an article about you just based on hearsay, that could get, know, DAFUS involved and get your kid from you. Like that to me, like how might, yeah. And now look.

Mike (24:32.791)
Terrifying, right? Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (24:36.448)
It was about if she was doing drugs and she was pregnant. So you understand why they step in, but to think that you're that level of fame is that the whole world knows your business on top of it. People are accusing you even at a point, maybe when you're trying to get clean. And I just don't think there was the sympathy for him maybe that he needed.

Mike (24:49.207)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (24:59.201)
Right, it was the perfect storm.

Kelly Catlin (25:01.334)
Yeah, and it's sad and 30 years later, he's still not getting, I think, the sympathy that he deserves. And that to me, I want to say, I think it was 2011. I have all the research in my book, but I have so many dates that I kind of tend to blend them. I think it was 2011. Some people in Aberdeen, his hometown, Aberdeen, Washington, proposed to, because there's the Yonge Street Bridge out there, which they unofficially call Kurt's Bridge.

That's where people come from all over the country to kind of pay homage to him and they leave graffiti and all these different things. some people in town, you know, hey, let's rename the bridge the Kirk Cobain Bridge. And it was pretty much shot down. And some people were saying, is this really the legacy we want to leave for our children? Name a bridge after a drug addict who committed suicide.

To me, it's like, tell me you didn't get the memo without telling me you didn't get the memo. Like if that's all you see, I mean, here's a man who basically put Aberdeen on the map, but like if that's all you see in somebody, then so many issues with that statement in itself.

Mike (26:05.474)
Yeah.

Mike (26:17.053)
It's, it's ever critical. mean, think of we applied that same standard to earn his heading way, right? Won't be, we, we look at it much differently, but you know, it's, it's usually from the same, maybe crowd who thinks that if you just,

Kelly Catlin (26:22.776)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (26:32.237)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (26:34.989)
stop using a substance that cures the problem. And when in fact we haven't dug deep to see what you're using the substance for and what needs to be addressed. Because then you just take away someone's means of soothing themselves, right? Without replacing it with something else.

Kelly Catlin (26:38.754)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (26:52.35)
the truth and who knew why he was doing that. I mean, I had promised myself I wasn't going to read his journals because it did feel like a gross violation of his privacy, you know what I mean? But they've already been dissected. They've been turned into books over the years. And I sat down about maybe a month ago and I was like, you know what, I'm going to check them out. I didn't buy them or anything. were

Mike (26:55.212)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (27:18.03)
on a website and I started reading them just because I wanted to know a little bit more about him. I mean, I think these journals that you can read, I think they start back in like maybe 87. So he was 20 years old and you think I can't even remember 20. Like I think of 20 and I think of like being in my mom's basement, like total, like a kid, you know what I mean? Nothing really profound or deep going through my head. And to read.

Mike (27:35.789)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ahem.

Kelly Catlin (27:45.598)
his journals and you know maybe he wasn't political but he was very socially conscious and the things that bothered him and affected him and even to listen to to songs like sappy not like as the whole band producing it together but when he just kind of recorded it on his montage of hack home recordings just kind of screwing around just a young kid and a guitar you know 20 years old and a guitar

And the lyrics are so profound. And I think that's so interesting about him is, you know, to me, they're about, you know, domestic violence, but they can be about, you know, anything to anybody. That was really the beauty, I think, of him, just that duality of the things that he said to so many people, what it means to so many people. But there were clearly things that bothered him and disturbed him on this deep, profound level. And again, for whatever reason, he started using, you know, drugs.

Mike (28:27.063)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (28:40.462)
maybe we needed to scratch beneath the surface to, okay, what is the issue? What's the root cause of it? What's the replacement? And I think just that kind of fame and being nitpicked by the media, it was just too much, I think, for somebody sensitive like him. So.

Mike (28:56.915)
And, you know, sharing as much as you want, you know, what's, can you tell us a little bit more about the cross section with Walter and what he was about in his life?

Kelly Catlin (29:08.753)
Walter was amazing. have, I think one of my best memories about Walter was him making fun of me when he realized I had never seen Star Wars. And he looked on his face and he's like, I'm sorry, what? was like, how have you at 30, I think I was maybe 30, 33 at time. like, how have you at 33, he's like, never have seen Star Wars. He was like, are you just avoiding TVs? He was so impressed that I had gone that many years.

I've since seen Star Wars, but he was funny. was, he had such a light in him. I mean, you could go anywhere and if you were in an uncomfortable situation, all you had to do was look over and see Walter, like, You know, he got people, he was funny. He was just one of those people that was so quick and so witty, which was why it was such a shock.

Mike (29:42.508)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (30:07.532)
that he would take his life. He just struck you as the last person to do that. Like no matter what issue you had or what you were feeling or he would be someone who could find some sort of humor in it. So my husband called me that day and told me, I was like, was even to this day sometimes it's hard processing it. Of all the people, I just never would have expected that.

from him because he just really, I mean, like I said, you knew there was PTSD, but never to that extent. And I still love every so often I'll see like a new video of him, you know, and he's just doing something funny in it. Like I think the worst for me anyway was, so he did die a month after our wedding and I immediately called the photographer and I was like, I need to get these photos immediately.

possibly to be used in a memory board at his funeral or service. She's like, absolutely, absolutely. I'll expedite getting the photos to you. So she expedites getting the photos to us. And I open up the whatever attachment and the first photo is him and my husband walking up to the chapel together. And a couple of pictures and there's me hugging him. And then we get the videographer on the phone and they're like, yeah, yeah, we're on it with the...

Mike (31:24.493)
Hmm.

Kelly Catlin (31:33.11)
with the video and they get the video to me. And you know, there's Walter on the floor at our reception doing the worm and just...

Mike (31:39.329)
Hmm

Kelly Catlin (31:41.934)
such an amazing person and that's who I want to remember him for. You know and who he was. I don't want to remember his final moments because there's so much about it even to this day we just don't understand it came at a left field. A of unanswered questions but I choose to want to think of the good.

I like to laugh whenever I see like something Star Wars and I'm like, Walter basically shamed me into watching it. So I like to think about that stuff. know, there's little things that you don't realize are going to be a trigger sometimes after somebody dies, especially in so young and by suicide. Like he used to love to play Pokemon Go. It was like a thing and he got us all turned on to it. And we'd walk around like idiots, like, you know.

Mike (32:31.862)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (32:37.698)
My husband had spotted me because we, I was playing Pokemon Go once at one of these like inside arcades and I was on, you know, the go-karts and you're supposed to be paying attention to the go-kart, but I'm trying to catch a Pokemon and I dropped my phone onto the track and then run over it with the go-kart. I used to play Malter cause he turned me onto it. And, I had to take that app off my phone for a solid couple of years. I couldn't hear the music anymore. it reminded me of him.

Mike (32:45.953)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mike (32:53.195)
Hahaha

Kelly Catlin (33:08.62)
And it just made me feel so sick to my stomach when I would hear it. And it was hard to think about him, to talk about him without feeling like a panic attack coming on. And there's, family handled it all different ways. Some people went to individual talk therapy and some people were in the anonymous, the suicide survivor support groups. And you handle it.

the best that you can. And I do find it's hard for my family as a collective whole to talk about him. I like to think he's somewhere, you know, smiling down on us. I have these hyper realistic dreams where he's, you know, at a barbecue and he's smiling and he's just having a beer. And it's almost like this kind of reassurance, like he's coming to me to be like, I'm okay, I'm happy. And I couldn't, I just can't talk about him and cry anymore. Like I am all cried out with Walter.

Mike (33:39.927)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (33:57.495)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (34:04.192)
I'm ready to celebrate him. And he is mentioned in the book a lot. Obviously, I don't get into, you know, the specifics of anything, but he is mentioned in it because a big thing, a big driving factor in getting Kurt's friends to do this book was I had to tell them about Walter and why I wrote the book. And the book is so okay, so the book is 500 pages. It's a beast. And it has like a couple photos and it is

Mike (34:26.242)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (34:33.652)
It is solid text, but it's all interviews. And it's not like other books that might have like, you know, couple hundred people in it. It only has like 37 people in it, maybe, and everybody got their own chapter. So, I mean, the book is really a deep dive with all these people. So you basically get this entire, you know, interview that's maybe, you know, truncated in spots if we're talking about the weather and like cares, you know.

So you'll hear me bring Walter up in multiple conversations. So he kind of does become a theme throughout it. And I just kind of talk about mental health and how we can do better. I want people to know who he was. I want people to know that his life mattered. I want people to know that his death was preventable. That he could have come to any of us, and any one of us would have helped him. And the same holds true for Kurt. Just talking to his friends.

Mike (35:24.482)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (35:31.086)
Boy, did he have an intimate panel of people that loved him and really would have done anything for him. And just how sad that that's what he felt he needed to do. I mean, I can think of so many people in the book that would have been there in a heartbeat had he picked up a phone and called them, you know? 27 years old, how awful.

Mike (35:35.969)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (35:48.939)
Yeah.

It is. the justice that you do him and Walter by writing and helping us collectively remember the other things that were not the final chapter is, I think, such a service and such a gift to their lives and to our lives.

Kelly Catlin (36:12.718)
Thank you. Well, now, unfortunately, they're not the only two people anymore that I'm trying to champion in the book. I'm actually wearing, you know, Steve Albini's shirt today. Steve Albini was incredible, and he was one of the people who didn't hesitate to be part of the book. And he was such a lovely human being and an absolute pleasure to work with on his chapter. And

Steve and I last spoke on the 30th anniversary of Kurt's passing. So that was on April 5th, 2024. And then Steve died a little over a month later, very sudden, very tragic. And I didn't know him well. My involvement was his chapter and that was it. I had called his studio, got his contact information, shot him an email. Hey, this is what I'm doing. This is where the money's going. Do you wanna be part of this? He was 100%.

There was a lot of back and forth with scheduling conflicts and whatnot. And we both kind of bailed on each other a couple of times. Heaps, obviously recording, you know, engineers, super busy. Me homeschooling my kid, like, I don't know what day of the week it is some days. And plus I work on top of it as a freelance writer. And when we finally connected, you know, was that 30th anniversary of Kurt's passing and neither one of us acknowledged it because I don't even think it occurred to either one of us.

But what I remember about my interview with Steve is I'm on the phone with him and we're talking and all of sudden my walls are shaking. we live in New Jersey, we don't get earthquakes here. So my walls are shaking and my brain is going, my God, my furnace is exploding. Like this is what I'm thinking, but it's like you can't process what's going on. So I'm like, no, but seriously, why is the ground shaking?

Mike (37:51.671)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (37:58.465)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (38:05.748)
It was like a minute in and Steve's talking and he's telling a joke and he's laughing. And I can tell he's a little uncomfortable because he's waiting for me to laugh too. And I'm laughing and I'm going, Steve, I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to ignore you. I'm I think we're having an earthquake. And he must hear like every word possible come out of my mouth. I mean, my legs are like jello at this point. I'm terrified because I don't know what's going on. You you're pinning an earthquake.

Mike (38:14.401)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (38:29.964)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (38:32.328)
And he was so nice and he was so gracious. And he's like, did you want to go? And I'm like, no, my husband's looking out the window. He's like yelling at neighbors, like, what was that? You know, my kids slept through the whole thing. No, I'm like, nothing fell off the walls. I think this was relatively modest, you know, all things considered. So anyhow, so we finished our interview and you know, about a month later, I'm in my husband's office and we're talking and I'm talking about maybe another project that I'm kicking around and I'm like,

Well, I should email Steve and see if he'd have any interest in being part of this one too. And I leave his office in an hour later, my phone starts going off, you know, and it's a lot of my friends from the little Nirvana music scene that I've gotten close with over the years. And they're like, Steve Albini died. And I was like, what? Like, I just talked to him. What do mean? You know? And yeah, like he had a heart attack. Oh my God. So.

He I started doing it, learning more about Steve. I found out that in the 90s, his wife, Heather started something called Letters to Santa. And it's this charity where basically what they would do is they would go to the post office and get these letters to Santa that people who are having a hard time would write, never thinking anybody was going to read them. And usually it was, you parents, I

I don't want to have to decide this year with my children who gets shoes and who gets a coat. I want to be able to do everything for everybody. I just need a break." And they fulfilled these people's wishes and they just give them $10,000, no strings attached. And Steve was a huge champion for that, for his wife's charity. So I decided to, my book was written in conversational format. So it's not just like a he said, she said, but I decided to make Steve's chapter a little different. And I did do it a straight he said, she said.

Mike (40:03.255)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (40:26.368)
You could see his interview in its entirety because it is one of his final interviews. I mean, I know we did a couple more interviews, not many in the month of April, but I don't know exactly what he spoke about compared to my interview because I haven't read all of them. But we did talk about more than just Nirvana's in-utero recording session. We talked about how Kurt championed the marginalized. So I like to think maybe I've got

Mike (40:32.365)
Hmm.

Kelly Catlin (40:56.126)
something really neat that represents Steve Albini's social conscience, social conscience in my book. And I'm going to give, I've added Steve's wife's charity to the list of charities that the book supports in honor of Because he could have said no, I mean, he was busy and he could have said, no, I don't have time for the book. And as soon as I emailed him, he wrote back immediately. He was like, yep, absolutely happy to part of it. Where, you know, other people kind of blew me off. So I

Mike (40:59.905)
Mmm, yeah.

Mike (41:20.886)
Hmm.

Kelly Catlin (41:25.716)
really he was good people like he was really good people. He was definitely a straight shooter and called things like he saw them in my very limited interaction with him. I really have all the respect in the world for for who Steve Albini was and for what he represents. So trying to keep the book positive for all the awesome people who are in it. Unfortunately, he wasn't the only person I worked with on the book that passed away. Before Kurt was in Nirvana, he was in

This always cracks me up. He was in a band called Fecal Matter. And I know, but their first ever drummer was Greg Hockenson. And I knew Greg, I liked Greg a lot. Greg endorsed my book and then actually passed away two days later. But his sister Misty did a very nice interview because during one of Kurt's homeless periods, he did live with Greg and Greg's family.

Mike (41:58.058)
Yeah

Kelly Catlin (42:24.526)
Greg's sister remembers, you know, him living there and stepped in and gave a nice, nice interview about what she remembered about Kurt. So it was a sad book, like I said, I mean, it was sad, you know what I mean? It really was sad to write. I had even been emailing Charles Cross, who wrote Heavier Than Heaven and I had told him, was Kurt Cobain's biography, and I had told him about the project and

I had sent him over a list of questions, you know, for the book. If he wanted to be part of it, he passed away too. I mean, it was just like, it was brutal to write. feel like a lot of people from that community passed away while I was writing this. And I got tired of getting the, holy crap, did you read this, you know, text message from people? I was like, my God, am I done with this book yet? It was just, it was a lot. It was a lot. It was heavy.

Mike (43:06.241)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (43:12.129)
Yeah.

Mike (43:16.141)
It is and I think there's a certain beauty that's not talked about in keeping your heart open in this process and being able to see to taking the good. also have to take in the heartache and the courage to be able to do that.

Kelly Catlin (43:30.988)
Yeah. It's depressing. I remember someone, most people I worked with were very positive. Every so often I'd have, you'd have like random people contacting you or reaching out and you'd kind of be like, you find out that people were like fishing for information. Maybe they knew some, author, another writer, whatever. Everybody knows everybody and everybody wants information about what you're doing. And one person reached out.

And I was like, I'm to celebration of life, the celebration of Kurt Cobain. And I was mocked pretty good. Good luck with that. I mean, he killed himself. What's going to be positive about that? Okay. And I remember this person was like, where are you giving the money to? And I was listing the charities and I said, I'm not sure about the last one yet. said, I want to do something for wounded veterans. I said, because you know, I did write the book for Walter.

I said, and he was a veteran and this person laughed and was like, that's so anti-Kurt Cobain. That's so against what he stood for. And I was like, I don't think in a million years, Kurt Cobain would ever have begrudged a veteran, especially a wounded veteran. So it was just, I met a lot of wonderful people and I would say it was maybe like 99 % of people were awesome. And like the one percenters who had some...

comments. They're not in my book. I was picky. I was picky. Anybody that was going to take in a different direction definitely isn't in the book. A lot of people out there, I got told you didn't know him. don't have the right to challenge existing opinions on him. If people who knew him said he was depressed and this was what he was going to do, you don't get to say otherwise. And I'm like,

Mike (44:55.743)
Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (45:22.742)
Yes, I do. I can absolutely, I'm like, absolutely can. yeah, I had some people irritated. I was like, no, and now, now I booked just doubled in length to prove you wrong. I just, I just have such a strong opinion about mental health, being a parent, having a small child, knowing the world my child is growing up in. I just think we have a responsibility to do better. And I just hope that the book does better.

Mike (45:23.661)
Good for you.

Mike (45:34.123)
Hehehehehe

Kelly Catlin (45:52.234)
And that maybe inspires people to do better. You know what I mean? Plus there's mental health resources in it too. thank you. I felt I needed to put that in there. My thoughts are even if it can't bring, well obviously it can't bring Walter back, maybe it can prevent somebody else's loved one from doing that. So I don't know, I just hope it has a pay it forward kind of, you I hope people read it.

Mike (45:56.247)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (46:00.011)
Love that part too.

Mike (46:12.333)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (46:21.198)
think a little differently about mental health, about what people are going through. did have, you know, obviously I had beta readers on the book and made sure to pick people who either like really didn't like Nirvana or Cobain or like the exact opposite of like what my audience would be or like knew about him, but like didn't know much about him. And after reading, I had some people come to me and say, I went down to Cobain rabbit hole last night.

about him. Was he really like that? Did he really do that? Or this isn't just about Cobain. This is about, you know, the human someone, one person called about the human condition that I used him as a vehicle to tackle larger systemic issues. So I like to think the book is for everybody. It's written in a way that if someone doesn't know anything about Kurt Cobain, they could still follow it. It's not like one of those deep dives where it's like,

Mike (46:51.533)
love that.

Mike (47:15.575)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (47:18.636)
Who's this? Who's Buzz Osborne? Like, I put who everybody was, like the band they were from. I made sure, like the best way to do that was to give the book to my mother who knew nothing about Kurt Cobain going into it and be like, please read this and then give me all your questions. And this is so funny to me. I look at my mom who, you know, grew up as like the biggest Bowie fan who she was done with it for her birthday. She was like,

Mike (47:20.013)
What's going on?

Kelly Catlin (47:48.12)
Can I get a Nirvana CD? Like she was that, she was that like into him. It was awesome. You know what? And I think to myself, what a testament to Cobain's work though, that he got to her. And she said to me, she said, I said, mom, do you think this book is? Like, it's not like a biography. She said, it's definitely a celebration of life. And I said, what were your thoughts on Cobain going into this and what are your thoughts now? And she said, and my mother,

Mike (47:51.543)
love that. What a testament to your work.

Mike (47:58.837)
Hmm.

Kelly Catlin (48:17.322)
won't sugarcoat to make me, not for something like this, it's going to be available for public consumption. She'll be honest. She'll be lovingly honest. she said, going into this, thought he was just someone who used drugs and died by suicide. She said, and reading the whole book, she was like, I was so upset because I knew how it ended. She said, and what a beautiful person he was. She said, he just seemed like a kind human being. And that's just what you get from the people in the book. Just...

Mike (48:39.052)
Mmm.

Kelly Catlin (48:45.998)
Like, you know, there's one story and this was from Greg Hockinson's sister Misty when Kurt lived with them. she you know, her brother's out partying and Kurt was home that night and she had cats. And she says one of her cats starts bleeding and she doesn't know what's wrong with her cat. And she goes and she gets Kurt and Kurt's, you know, the cat's pregnant, the cat's in labor.

And she says how he goes and he's like, go get a box, get blankets, get a box cutter. And he's making a bed for the cat and he helps her help the cat have kittens. Like just the sensitive side of him that I thought was so sweet. And I'm like, but you just don't hear those stories. And it's sad. And it's like, what an animal lover, you know? So I have a lot of little anecdotes like that in the book. So I hope people...

Mike (49:21.005)
Yes.

Mike (49:25.771)
No, yeah.

Kelly Catlin (49:36.526)
can appreciate it, you know, for what it is. a it's a not sensationalized. I did hear sensationalized stories while writing this, because I mean, you're talking some of these interviews lasted for days. I would talk to people and then we like I have to take a break. You have to take a break. We can't talk about this nonstop because it's suicide comes up. It's tough pull as well. So there was a lot of information conveyed to me. It's not all in the book. If it was anything that I felt

Mike (49:55.681)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (50:05.262)
was too private, Kurt deserves that privacy. Just because he passed away doesn't mean we get to rummage through his things like it's a garage sale. So if anything was too private, it's not a book. So, thank you.

Mike (50:08.311)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (50:15.371)
Yeah, I love that too. That's something I hadn't considered in it. That's a beautiful touch to it. Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (50:22.05)
He deserves that. Why? There's this, this, because somebody was famous or because somebody died and that's it. You know, it's, it's a, well, your whole life is up for grabs now and we can just dissect it and no, it's, called respect. And I have a lot of respect for Kurt Cobain. I don't follow him too much as like the musician, this Nirvana, you know, frontman monolith. I follow him as a He seemed like an awesome one, but.

Mike (50:49.217)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (50:51.79)
But to me, like I said, it was a depressing book to write. And I think one of the toughest parts of the book was working closely with one of his friends because I did have the people in the book read it and fact check it to make sure everything was really up and up. And one of Kurt's friends said to me, he said, I'm really sorry you didn't get to meet him. He would have really liked you. And that bothered me and made me feel bad though, because I thought to myself, how awful.

Mike (50:52.333)
you

Mike (51:05.794)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (51:13.613)
Mm.

Kelly Catlin (51:19.97)
that I'll never get to meet this human who we all look up to and respect because we didn't see how worthy he was of love. How awful, you know? 27 years old. So, terrible.

Mike (51:32.567)
There's a sting to that and depending on what people believe, I think this echoes into eternity, which I love. Because I've had similar experiences to you where you're talking about Walter and seeing some of the friends I lost, just very casually, happy, relaxed. Almost as if they let me know that things were okay and it's been a comfort to me. So it's given me some hope for what comes.

Kelly Catlin (51:54.446)
with you.

Kelly Catlin (52:02.08)
It helps. does. I've had weird things in the house where like Alexa starts playing. This was really strange. I fell asleep on the couch one day and I actually had a dream about Kurt Cobain. was, I'm writing about this man. I'm gonna, you know, but I woke up because Alexa starts to blast Nirvana. And my husband was even, you know, in the room and I looked at him and he's like, it was probably a Google algorithm. Yeah. Who knows?

Mike (52:02.189)
It does.

Mike (52:15.565)
Hmm?

Mike (52:25.962)
Heh.

Kelly Catlin (52:29.88)
But you know, things happen sometimes and you just think, you know, who knows where we go when we die? And I just want to be the best person that I can be when I'm here, you know, for my kid to see, this is how, this is the way to do things, care about people. And for me, and I do think I say this in the book, I say, when I started writing the book, I refer to him as Cobain. And you see that all the time.

Mike (52:54.519)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (52:57.098)
Even when I'm tasked with writing, you know, I review albums for an online music publication called Mixdown. And, you know, it's like a writing format. You you introduce the musicians first name, last name, last name, moving forward. So that's just kind of, and that's how I write for any of my publications, last name, moving forward. And I did that for my book. And I want to say I was just about done with it. And I was going through one of the first editing processes and I was like, he's not co-banded to me anymore. And I changed it to Kurt through the entire book.

Mike (53:11.469)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (53:26.624)
Hmm.

Kelly Catlin (53:26.732)
because he felt like a friend across time and space. like I said, one is one friend said to me, he would have really liked you. That just made me feel so bad. And I sat there and I was like, how sad that I have to write this book. And a friend of mine shared the book on Reddit and Reddit's brutal. So I kind of, I know.

Mike (53:47.892)
Oof. Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (53:50.67)
If you want someone to just shoot your self-esteem down in 30 seconds, just go ask Reddita a question. I would say about 98 % of people were very favorable about the book. You had a couple people who called it a cash grab for attention who actually I went on and commented and shared Walter and why I wrote the book. These people actually private messaging me apologizing. I'm so sorry. was like...

Mike (53:56.461)
You're just going Reddit. Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (54:18.574)
would you know? I was like, but maybe don't judge a book by its cover, you know? And my takeaway was this book isn't a cash grab. It's not for attention. I'm a very private person. I wanted to put it out with a pen name, but my publisher was like, you really can't? You just can't. You know what I mean? It's like, can't promote it. can't. And promoting book is important because it's promoting mental health awareness and suicide awareness. And I said a cash grab. What I wouldn't, I would

Mike (54:19.969)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (54:46.678)
I wish I never had to write this book. I'd much rather just have Walter. So it wasn't a cash grab. know, I, the reason I'm, you know, giving half the profits and not all because it's an expensive book to write. I mean, we did have to buy the photos and we did have to, you know, license the lyrics and then things like this aren't cheap to do. But, you know, I'm going to do whatever I can with this book.

Anytime I do book signings, I'm going to turn them into food drives. I have a big event coming up for the book's release since it's on Kurt Cobain's birthday. There's a big record store in New Jersey that donated its space to us for the day. So I've got a couple musicians coming in to play cover songs, Nirvana cover songs. And we are giving 100 % of the profits that day to a local children's advocacy center. So we're just trying to...

do as many good things with the book as possible. So thank you. Definitely not a cash grab. Definitely not a cash grab. I'm really in the hole from the book because it's expensive. Because I was like, look, if I'm going to do this book, I'm going to do it right. And I knew licensing lyrics wasn't going to be cheap. And I felt it was important because I didn't want to take liberties with talking about Kurt Cobain's death.

Mike (55:45.249)
Yes, I love that. It's such a vehicle of definitely, no, the farthest thing from it. Yeah.

Mike (56:00.343)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (56:12.64)
in the book. That's been done in other books. And suicide is a very personal thing for the family and the friends and everybody involved. And it would have been in poor taste for me to come in and to try to psychoanalyze those final moments and to be, you know, I just, especially not having known him to come in like a Monday morning quarterback, you know what mean? be like, this is, so I didn't want to do that. So what I wanted to do instead to close out the book,

Mike (56:33.378)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (56:41.966)
was I wanted to let Kurt speak and obviously I wasn't going to be one of these sickos that goes and takes his suicide note and plasters at leases. So I took a Nirvana song and I felt all apologies was a good song to close the book on. So, you know, the Nirvana's music publisher, everyone who license, licenses Nirvana stuff was phenomenal with letting me use the song in its entirety. And I do close out, you know, Kurt's section of the book, cause I have a little something after that about mental health.

Mike (56:49.483)
Yeah.

Mike (56:54.925)
Mmm.

Kelly Catlin (57:10.914)
but I do close it out with all apologies. And I felt it was prudent to use a few songs to discuss them, to use them for educational purposes, to kind of maybe get into where he was coming from. So I don't know, it was a tough book. It was an interesting book. I don't know if I want to write more books. So that was, I think it was. I'm excited for you to read it. I would like to know what you think of it.

Mike (57:32.301)
It's beautiful journey and a beautiful story that I cannot wait to read and... Mm-hmm. Forever in Bloom, correct?

Kelly Catlin (57:41.422)
Yeah, my husband named it. He was like, I'm sitting here like, what do I call this book? I'm just gonna call it Kurt. He's like, nah, nah. What about Forever in Blue? Kurt Cobain, Forever in Blue. And I'm like, I knew I married you for a reason. that's the name. And it was funny because when my publisher gave me a contract, they were like, is the title, we're just asking, we're just asking, is it negotiable? And I said, no. I said, that one's not negotiable.

Mike (57:43.105)
Love that.

Mike (57:52.023)
Ha

Kelly Catlin (58:06.702)
I said, no, my husband came up with the name. said, and he's just as much part of this book as my child and my family and the rest of my family. said, no. So it was nice. was a family's been super supportive of it. Just hope it does some good. You know, it's definitely a different take on Cobain and it does have new stories. I mean, I did have people in the book that haven't haven't done interviews yet. I mean, you knew a lot of people. The forward was written by Nirvana's

Her name is Susan Collins. She's lovely. She was the VP of A &R for Virgin Music America. So this was Nirvana's music publisher, who basically helped to discover them when they were at Sub Pop and to bring them into the mainstream. And she talked about her time with him, even reflecting down to the funeral and being at his house. So she really wonderful woman.

Mike (58:45.431)
Mm-hmm.

Kelly Catlin (59:03.916)
And you know, she really hasn't spoken to many people about him. I think even in her, in her, you the forward even says that she hasn't really read books about him because she doesn't feel any of them reflect the Kurt that she knew. So to me, somebody from Virgin Music doing the forward, I was honored, you know, keeping a contact with her. I consider her a friend. I like her a lot. She's a wonderful person. So it's just.

Mike (59:15.959)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (59:22.861)
That's huge. Yeah.

Kelly Catlin (59:32.802)
heartwarming that people heard my story about Walter. And we're like, we don't know you, you're not part of the Seattle music scene. Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna help you. Let's do this. So everybody in the book, Danny Goldberg, who is Nirvana's manager, he's in the book, you know, he's incredible. He's busy. That's an understatement. He didn't have to do this. He did. You know what I mean? People in it really, you know, faith in humanity restored.

Mike (59:59.437)
That's good. And yeah, I know you said, I hope the book does some good and I, I'd argue it's already doing a lot of good. one thing I want to say before we close up for today is that anybody listen to this, who stirred up some feelings, or this is something you've been struggling with. You can always dial 9 8 8 and it is the crisis line in our country in the United States. And you can talk to somebody. and this is, this is something that if you're struggling,

Kelly Catlin (01:00:06.158)
Thank you.

Mike (01:00:29.313)
Find someone to talk to. Find someone to talk about it. Is there anything you want to take us out with, Kelly?

Kelly Catlin (01:00:36.372)
No, I'm just really appreciative that you let me share this and you let me share Walter's story because he wasn't the lead singer of Nirvana and people outside of my family and his friends don't know who he was and I think the book will correct that. He was wonderful. Anybody who has a negative opinion towards Kurt Cobain, I can say with certainty, he was wonderful.

and I hope that people know that there's always somebody out there who can help you. There's always hope. I mean, go on my website. You can contact me on there. I'll listen to you if you're having a hard time. Lord knows I don't sleep. I'm always awake. So there's just so many good shows on Netflix. How can I sleep?

Mike (01:01:21.301)
Yeah. And so we'll have the links to how to contact you, your website, links to purchase your book and, and I appreciate everybody listening and Kelly, thank you so much for your time today.

Kelly Catlin (01:01:33.336)
Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.