Movement and Gratitude: Keys to Overcoming Depression

Summary

In this episode of the Ginger and Chocolate podcast, hosts Lindsay and Mike share personal updates, including Lindsay's job change and Mike's experiences with music and the military. They delve into the topic of depression, discussing the differences between sadness and depression, and exploring various types of depression, including major depressive disorder, persistent depressive disorder, and seasonal affective disorder. The conversation highlights the challenges of recognizing and coping with depression, as well as the importance of understanding its nuances. In this conversation, Lindsay and Mike explore various aspects of depression, including postpartum depression, the importance of seeking professional help, and practical strategies for managing mental health. They discuss the role of movement, gratitude, and connecting with personal values as effective remedies for depression. The conversation also touches on the significance of honest feedback from friends and the challenges posed by the digital age in maintaining mental well-being.

Takeaways

• The hosts discuss the impact of toxic work environments on mental health.
• Depression can manifest as a flatness of emotion, distinct from situational sadness.
• Recognizing the difference between sadness and depression is crucial for understanding mental health.
• Exercise and social interaction can help combat feelings of depression.
• Different types of depression have unique characteristics and symptoms.
• Seasonal affective disorder affects many people, especially in less sunny climates.
• The paradox of depression makes it hard to engage in activities that could help.
• Professional help is crucial for managing depression.
• Movement can alleviate feelings of stuck energy associated with depression.
• Practicing gratitude can significantly improve mental health.
• Connecting with personal values can help individuals combat feelings of depression.
• Small, actionable steps can lead to significant improvements in mental health.
• Honest feedback from friends can provide valuable insights into one's mental state.
• In-person interactions are increasingly important in a digital world.

Titles

• Navigating the Complexities of Postpartum Depression
• The Role of Professional Help in Mental Health
• Finding Your Values: A Path to Mental Wellness
• Identifying What Matters: A Personal Journey

Keywords

Ginger and Chocolate podcast, depression, sadness, mental health, personal stories, types of depression, coping strategies, postpartum depression, mental health, professional help, gratitude, movement, values, depression remedies, feedback, digital age

Chapters

00:00
Introduction and Personal Updates

09:09
Understanding Depression vs. Sadness

14:33
Types of Depression and Their Characteristics

22:39
Understanding Postpartum Depression

24:06
Seeking Professional Help for Depression

25:25
Movement and Gratitude as Remedies

29:26
Connecting with Values to Combat Depression

33:16
Identifying Personal Values and Interests

37:18
Simple Steps to Improve Mental Heal

Thanks for listening to the Ginger and Chocolate Podcast. Check out our website at gingerandchocolate.com to get in touch with us. Follow us on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram @ginger_and_chocolate_podcast; and please subscribe to the show and select automatic downloads on your podcast app.

Transcript

Lindsay (00:01.001)
Welcome to the Ginger and Chocolate podcast. I am your co-host, Lindsay, along with Mike. How's it going, Mike?

Mike (00:09.326)
Good day, how are you, Lindsey?

Lindsay (00:11.817)
doing pretty good. have some news which I'll share in a minute, tell me something or tell the listener something about yourself that we probably don't know.

Mike (00:22.638)
Probably didn't know. Let's see. They know I Think by now that I was in the United States Marine Corps. Maybe they didn't know that I enlisted in spring of 2001 to be a musician Specifically a saxophonist and much plans changed a little bit, but that's how I started

Lindsay (00:43.217)
Wow, that is definitely not how I thought you got into the military. I just thought you were like, I'm going to go, you know, protect the country and kick some ass somewhere. I didn't know we were playing instruments. Wow, that's cool. So how long did you play the sack or how long did you play, I guess, your whole life or kind of what?

Mike (00:44.448)
Hmm

Mike (00:58.795)
Yep.

Mike (01:06.798)
Yeah, I started in fourth grade, so it was about nine or 10 and played all the way up through high school and did all the marching bands, jazz bands, pep bands, band camp. Yes, every single year. I even went back after high school to help with band camp right before I went to my own boot camp.

Lindsay (01:09.013)
You're right.

Lindsay (01:30.506)
Two just, they seem diametrically opposed, know what I mean? Bandcamp and bootcamp. And do you still play?

Mike (01:34.452)
Mm-hmm. They were. They were very different.

I hadn't played in little while. I'm looking at my saxophone right now that I've played a few times and I have that itch to play it and then I find other things to do and I don't.

Lindsay (01:45.269)
you

Lindsay (01:53.535)
That's really cool. I'm a huge jazz fan, which has a lot of saxophone in it. I love the sound of the saxophone. It's amazing. mean, if someone's playing it, who knows how to play it? I would make a horrible noise with it, but.

Mike (01:56.48)
Mmm, yes.

Mike (02:07.415)
Yeah, it's possible to sound like a goose if you don't know what you're doing. Just, beep-bop. Yeah, exactly.

Lindsay (02:10.229)
And then you immediately start hunting.

Lindsay (02:19.089)
my gosh, okay, well that's really cool. That's awesome.

Mike (02:21.39)
Yeah, what about you? What's something listeners might not know about you?

Lindsay (02:26.279)
Well, I'll tell you my news because I don't think anybody knows really. I quit my job and took a new job.

Mike (02:28.042)
okay.

Mike (02:32.931)
Is that exciting? Is that good?

Lindsay (02:36.487)
No, it's exciting. It's exciting. I've been with this. Well, I'm not. mean, I'm leaving on the 20th, but I've been with my firm for five years. And, you know, sometimes it's just like, it's time, you know. And I got a new opportunity that is really exciting. It's going to be a little bit different. It's paying a lot more. So there's that. Can afford more fancy bikes and.

Mike (02:50.402)
time.

Mike (02:59.5)
Nice.

Mike (03:04.43)
Ooh, yeah.

Lindsay (03:05.247)
such wanted a new tri bike for, you know, at some point, and I think I'm going to be able to get it. Yay. But like, like everything in life change, you know, it's scary. Right. And so on the one hand, I'm super excited. On the other hand, there's this part of my brain that's like, did you make the wrong choices? Is this job going to really suck? Are they going to be evil? Like,

Mike (03:12.728)
Yes.

Mike (03:19.714)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (03:34.39)
Hahaha.

Lindsay (03:34.457)
Why are they paying you so well? There must be something wrong with it. And a girlfriend of mine was like, did it occur to you that you are qualified and they're paying you what you're worth? I was like, I didn't cross my mind. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, there's, you know.

Mike (03:38.754)
Yeah.

Mike (03:47.532)
Yeah, how about that part, Lindsay?

Mike (03:53.737)
It's in cross my mind, maybe I'm worth it. Maybe I'm worthy of this paycheck, right?

Lindsay (04:04.756)
It's it's bittersweet in a way because I kind of thought I was going to stay at this job for the rest of my career. But you know, I had sort of a ceiling with progression and it was really related to a toxic boss. And at some point I was like, whatever progression I might have here, whatever.

Mike (04:15.832)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (04:32.533)
could be in the future is going to have to be with this toxic boss and is that worth it? for my mental health, that's just not going to work. I I did it for five years, but in the long run, it's not going to work because it triggers me and it makes me start, you know, it triggers all of the things that I work so hard to combat. So like just the

Mike (04:39.256)
Yeah.

Mike (04:45.474)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (05:01.333)
shoot, what's it called? Imposter syndrome. But then also like competitiveness and then I'll be angry and then I'll be trying to manipulate the situation. I mean, all of those things, right? Yeah, that's not how I really well, let me just rephrase that. That's not how I want to live. Not that's not how I was going to say. That's not how I really want to live, which sounds like maybe a little bit. I could live like that, but I don't want to. I don't want to live like that. And so I made a move.

Mike (05:05.314)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (05:13.198)
too.

Mike (05:19.541)
Heh.

Mike (05:28.718)
That's awesome, congratulations.

Lindsay (05:30.559)
Thanks, thanks. I'll keep you guys posted on how it's going. But yeah, so that's where I'm at. And other than that, I was in Vegas last week. So I mean, was vague. Drunk people, but you know what? Mostly just people that were staying up like around the clock gambling type of, you know, I was there.

Mike (05:42.503)
Ooh, how was that?

Mike (05:48.024)
drunk people walking around the streets everywhere.

Mike (05:57.256)
Mm-hmm. It's inspiring to see.

Lindsay (06:00.711)
Isn't it like, life's going well for you right now. I was interested because there were lots of signs around that said for gambling help, call this number, which is great. And then the other number was for. No, for for for trafficking. It's like if you're being trafficked or you have information, please call in. It was interesting.

Mike (06:15.646)
huh.

Mike (06:19.32)
Escorts.

Mike (06:24.101)
yeah.

Lindsay (06:28.541)
Know nothing about alcohol and drugs there, but a lot about the trafficking. And I hadn't noticed that previously. It must be, I don't know, either becoming a worse problem or else they're starting to really try to crack down, which is great. But yeah, you go in the women's bathroom and be on the inside of every stall, like a sign, basically saying. So that's good.

Mike (06:34.37)
I've seen that in airports.

Mike (06:45.742)
Interesting.

Lindsay (06:56.601)
And I won $46. And I can buy a water bottle. Well, I didn't even gamble. It was in the exhibit hall, you know, for at this conference. And one of the vendors had this wheel and you could spin the wheel and then get little stupid things like, you know, a credit card holder for your phone or whatever.

Mike (06:59.052)
Ooh, alright, buy that new tri bike today. You can buy a water bottle, a Presta valve stem.

Mike (07:16.296)
huh.

Mike (07:25.187)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (07:25.887)
but one of one slice of the wheel was to go into one of those cash booths. Sorry. And I landed on that. And there was this huge crowd around it. I'm like, I'm not trying to get in this thing and start grabbing it. I was embarrassed. Totally.

Mike (07:31.509)
you grabbed the dollars?

Mike (07:37.422)
Nice.

Mike (07:43.778)
That's that is like the middle school dream to be in there, right? Yeah, do we have video footage of this?

Lindsay (07:52.309)
No, we don't. And I didn't have to do it because the guy said, you're not the first person to be embarrassed. My colleague has been doing it that worked at the booth. She's been doing it for people and she's gotten really good. So she went in there and she just like held her hands up and this blew all these dollars into her hands. And she just held it. And then she, that's how I got my 46 bucks. Yeah.

Mike (08:01.346)
Yeah.

Mike (08:14.766)
Well, welcome back to Cascrab Strategies with Mike and Lindsay.

Lindsay (08:17.429)
Well what else is anything else that I missed when since we didn't we went a week without recording?

Mike (08:28.226)
That's right. Well, I went hunting for ducks, surprise, surprise, but no ducks were harmed in the making of my hunt. So yeah.

Lindsay (08:36.149)
Hmm?

you

one of these days.

Mike (08:43.631)
Exactly. So we'll see. We'll see what the future brings this week later.

Lindsay (08:49.493)
Nice, nice. Yeah, you're going soon, right?

Mike (08:53.473)
Mm-hmm. Yeah as we're recording I'm going tomorrow as people are listening. I already went yesterday. So hope I did well

Lindsay (09:01.587)
Yes, here's to future Mike having done well on his head. So what are we talking about today?

Mike (09:09.174)
I'm about a fun one that kind of made me flash on this when we talked about seeing people gambling in the early morning hours is depression. Yeah, it's something that both of us are familiar with. I'm familiar with lifelong depression. And it's an interesting topic that I think affects a lot of people.

and it's not just sadness it's depression we can talk about how that's different a little bit

Lindsay (09:41.449)
Yeah, think it would be good to start out describing what the difference is between sadness and depression and how someone could tell if they or a loved one is sad versus depressed.

Mike (09:58.626)
Yeah, I think watch me blasted by comments online for this, but I'm pretty sure if we want to boil it down, that depression is just something that has staying power and that might be.

Lindsay (10:05.108)
haha

Mike (10:16.696)
the duration of time that you have it, this feeling of sadness and lethargy, and anedonia, which is the inability to experience pleasure. and it can also be independent of circumstance, whereas it's appropriate to be sad if someone you knew maybe passed away or something that's sad is happening in your life. That's, that's appropriate.

But you can have things going well in your life and still be depressed where you feel the sadness independent of circumstance.

Lindsay (10:52.019)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (10:56.329)
Yes, I am definitely familiar with both. my gosh, my dog. I hopefully you guys can't hear her. She's pitching a little fit outside. good. Good. Well, she's outside and she's staying out there. She just wants in and look around and see that she's not missing out on anything. But yeah, so.

Mike (11:06.496)
No, I didn't hear anything. Bring her closer to the mic. Scratch another door. Yeah.

Mike (11:18.285)
Yeah.

Lindsay (11:22.833)
Is sadness mostly or always situational like it's a response to a specific thing?

Mike (11:29.28)
I think so. Yeah. Sadness is a response to a situation that we deem appropriate to feel sad about. You know, someone mistreats you, you feel lonely, you feel passed over, disrespected, hurt, or something happens that's negative to people you care about too. You feel sad.

Lindsay (11:56.883)
Right. And I don't know about for you, but for me, it is I have depression as well. So I mean, I'm familiar with that. So I can but I can tell the difference. Like, obviously, there's a situation. That's one thing. But it feels different in my body and mind.

Mike (12:19.64)
Yeah, low energy is how I make the big difference.

Mike (12:26.456)
So depression comes with a difficulty having higher, I almost said higher energetic states. I don't think that's the words I want to use, higher energy levels.

Lindsay (12:27.155)
Yeah.

Lindsay (12:40.511)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I think actually right now, like I'm feeling a little bit that way, you know, because I think I'm excited about the new job, for example, but it's muted. The excitement is muted. And I've been feeling tired and lethargic and generally just kind of a little, yeah, just a little flat.

Mike (12:57.428)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay (13:09.481)
which is how I feel when I'm depressed is that sort of, I'm not someone who gets depressed like suicidally depressed or where I can't get out of bed, where I can't function. I can function, but it's this like flatness to it. And...

Mike (13:09.571)
Yeah.

Mike (13:25.483)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (13:33.331)
You know, we had a little meds change recently, so we'll see if that has something to do with it. I'm going to give a little feedback here shortly. But when I'm sad, like when my dog, Duke, had to be put down a couple of years ago, it was a different feeling because I wasn't flat. It's just that this memories of him or something would wash over me or I saw like one of his little dog beds that had been left.

Mike (13:37.27)
Nice.

Mike (13:49.538)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (14:02.429)
in the laundry room. And my two girl, my two girl dogs were in there laying on the bed, which they never go in that room, but they were both in there on his bed. And then of course, that's just like, but it's not flatness. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I hadn't brought up Duke. Now I'm really sad again. Now I'm depressed and sad. All right. Well.

Mike (14:05.453)
Hmm.

Mike (14:13.548)
Yeah.

Mike (14:17.89)
Right, there's a heartache. You can feel your heart aching. Yeah, that's sadness.

Lindsay (14:33.299)
I did ask AI, I want to give you some information and get some thoughts.

Mike (14:42.123)
We're at, we're asking AI about remedies for depression or what depression is or okay. Okay.

Lindsay (14:45.427)
We are, we're going to talk about both. think first of all, do you have an identify you personally, this is not AI related, have an identified type of depression.

Mike (14:56.718)
I do, is bipolar to depression, which is different than major depressive disorder or bipolar one or persistent depression. yeah, there's a few different flavors of this.

Lindsay (15:09.895)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, and it's on here. It's on the list. Bipolar disorder is on the list of types. So we can confirm that you are to have depression. So this is something I didn't know a term major depressive disorder, MDD. You're kind of a professional, so you probably know most of these, right? I would think I'm.

Mike (15:22.094)
Yes.

Mike (15:29.89)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (15:35.384)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (15:38.599)
I only know kind of what I have or people I know have, but.

Mike (15:38.872)
Yeah.

Major depressive disorder does not have features of mania or periods of high energy or agitation. It's just like always sad for most days out of, if you were to ask to people, how many days are you depressed out of the last 30 days? It would be more than not.

Lindsay (15:58.485)
Mmm.

Yeah, it says it's persistent, which is what you just described. Loss of interest in activities, changes in appetite, sleep patterns, fatigue, difficulty concentrating, and thoughts of death or suicide are all possible symptoms. And it can last for several months or longer.

Lindsay (16:26.968)
One thing I've noticed, this is also not about AI and we'll talk about it with remedies, but one thing I have noticed with the flat feeling that I have is that loss of energy that they just mentioned. When I get endorphins going, it sort of counteracts that.

but it's hard to get to the point where you'll get those endorphins going because the depression in and of itself makes you not want to do the other things.

Mike (16:57.07)
This is the paradox of depression, isn't it? The things you need the most are the hardest to do. Get out in the sun, getting with other people, interacting, working out, exercising, which has been a lifeline for me. Yeah, these things are hard to do, but they're the things that if you can just...

Lindsay (16:59.285)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (17:03.261)
Of course.

Lindsay (17:09.641)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (17:14.249)
Yeah, me too.

Mike (17:21.538)
force yourself sheer willpower or get someone set up the conditions to where you can get somebody to get you working out. You got some hope.

Lindsay (17:30.803)
Yeah, I'm going to go to my strength class this evening. will be, it's hard, but there's a group. It's a group class and the trainer is amazing. So I'll see people. I'll get the workout going. That will definitely help my mood. I'm sure. Okay. So the major depressive disorder was one thing we have persistent depressive disorder, PDD.

Mike (17:34.53)
Yes.

Mike (17:45.87)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (17:55.182)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (17:58.739)
It's also known as, I cannot say this word, DYSTHYMIA. Wow, okay. Chronic low-grade depression that lasts for at least two years. Holy cow. That's a long time to feel that way. Wow. I feel for people who are suffering from this.

Mike (18:04.482)
Just time here. Yeah.

Mike (18:13.506)
Yeah.

Mike (18:20.579)
Yeah.

Lindsay (18:26.261)
Sometimes people will feel it says a normal mood briefly, but it returns to a depressive state. Okay, so that's that one. Bipolar disorder and involves alternating periods of mania. They don't say much about bipolar here. Alternating periods of mania, elevated mood, increased energy, impulsive behavior, and depression. Depressive episodes can be severe and debilitating.

Mike (18:45.912)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay (18:53.321)
but you and I know that there's a little more to it than that.

Mike (18:57.75)
Yeah, yeah. And there's a differentiation between bipolar one and two. The biggest differentiating factor is that with bipolar one, a period of mania, which is like increased energy at abnormal levels. And it could be good fun energy or it can be just agitation and anger. But those periods last for more than one week.

Lindsay (19:15.167)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:25.314)
Whereas bipolar two is called, you have hypomanic states where those are not as severe and they last for less than one week.

Lindsay (19:35.669)
Yes, and that's when I will sign up for races that I'm never going to be able to do.

Mike (19:39.532)
Yeah.

Lindsay (19:44.063)
Like, hmm, there's no way you can train for this right now. Well, we know from the friend that we've referenced on this show who's bipolar one that it can last a really long time. The mania with hers. Or I was a year like in August, so that's a long, time. And I worry about the.

Mike (19:48.642)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (19:56.558)
Yes, long time.

Mike (20:09.858)
Long time.

Lindsay (20:13.449)
depression whenever that happens for her being equal or severe, you know. Okay, here's another one I have. The seasonal or at least I think I have it the seasonal affective disorder, aka sad. A lot of people I think think it to me it seems like a lot of people who don't consider themselves to have any sort of depressive disorder have sad, they just don't consider it to be an actual

Mike (20:16.128)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Mike (20:27.5)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:41.87)
Yeah.

Lindsay (20:43.955)
disorder. So it's a type of depression that occurs seasonally typically during the fall and winter months. Symptoms include fatigue, increased appetite, weight gain and difficulty concentrating. Light therapy is often an effective treatment. Yeah.

Mike (20:44.972)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (20:59.574)
Yes, yes. It's a tough one, especially if you come from a higher. What do you say? Like if you come from a sunnier place in the world and move to a less sunny place. Chances are you can get this. You know, if we see a lot of Pacific Islanders who come to the mainland for college. We'll get this.

Lindsay (21:14.133)
Mm-hmm.

Mm hmm. Yep.

Lindsay (21:24.613)
hmm, that's interesting. I didn't even think about that. I grew up in the heat, in the sun, in SoCal. And now I live by the ocean, which is beautiful, but it's Northern California. It's fog, lot of fog and dense where the sun doesn't really come out. And so I do have a light box on my desk.

Mike (21:45.944)
lot of fog.

Mike (21:53.838)
Thanks.

Lindsay (21:54.429)
I got to turn that puppy on because sometimes I'm just like, just want to cozy up and eat red vines and, you know, drink hot chocolate.

Mike (22:01.216)
Yeah, exactly. sounds so good. Do you ever drink the hot chocolate through a red vine? If you do, we're gonna ask for help.

Lindsay (22:08.981)
I've not gone there yet, but maybe I should. That's funny. know, a lot of people I feel like cozy up and just kind of want to hunker down during this time and weight gain is a big thing. A lot of times people are like, it's the holidays. I gain weight, but it could be it could be something more like this, like sad.

Okay, there's postpartum depression, which is women after childbirth, something that can be, I don't want to say dangerous, but something that can be a pretty major thing, know, postpartum depression. In fact, and I don't know if they still have this law or not, but it was at least at a certain point in Great Britain that a woman who

Mike (22:54.232)
Yeah.

Lindsay (23:08.221)
would commit infanticide in the first year of the child's life would be treated differently than a regular murderer because they knew that almost always there was a postpartum depression component to that. Not that we want people doing that, but sometimes if people don't get help, it can be very extreme and you can feel helpless in that situation to take care of the baby and all of that stuff.

Mike (23:16.738)
Hmm.

Lindsay (23:37.845)
So that's pretty hard. OK. There are other types. We don't need to go into all of them, but you guys get the idea. is various disorders that include pretty much across the board the low energy and sort of feelings of hopelessness and just general mood malaise, that kind of thing. OK. So we asked AI.

Mike (24:02.36)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (24:06.845)
What are remedies best remedies for depression? I would like us to say disclaimer first, which is while these strategies can be helpful for managing depression, they are not a substitute for professional medical advice. If you're struggling with depression, please consult with a medical health professional. And here on Ginger and Chocolate, although Mike is a professional, this show is not professional.

Mike (24:13.602)
Okay.

Mike (24:31.086)
Correct, yes. And if you're feeling suicidal, I would urge you to immediately dial 988. That is the crisis hotline. And you can talk to somebody right away.

Lindsay (24:42.357)
Hmm.

Lindsay (24:46.037)
I literally had no idea that that was something that existed. Wow. That's great advice. 988. Okay.

Mike (24:49.942)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, really easy to remember, 988. I'm gonna put that in the show notes too.

Lindsay (24:57.087)
Huh, okay. Yes, please. That's great. I'm so glad we have that. Wow, okay. Awesome. Thanks, Mike. Okay, so the first strategy is our professional help. And I know that you are a professional a little bit, not a little bit, you are a professional. Do you work with a lot of depression and what are the things that you do to work with patients who have depression?

Mike (25:04.163)
Yeah.

Mike (25:17.326)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (25:25.858)
I try to incorporate movement as part of it, whether it's walking, because depression is, you can see it as stuck energy. It's stuckness. And without oversimplifying it, this is just one way to describe it. But if you have stuck energy, if you move your body,

you can get rid of that stuck energy and you can start getting some endorphins. You can start moving your body and cycling out the bad stuff and movement with water. with drinking water too, as I should say is key. also I recommend if you're feeling depressed, you're more likely to be hunched over in a concave kind of body posture.

And I challenge people to stand up straight, tall, kind of like a superhero, maybe even open their arms and see how that feeling changes. I also encourage people to practice gratitude, which is a buzzword right now. And the way I encourage people to do this is to

Lindsay (26:26.389)
Hmm.

Mike (26:42.35)
contact people in person over the phone by text or email and just thank them for what they've they mean to them. You know, so I'll do this a lot during race week too for anxiety actually. mm I'll just reach out to people that flash across my mind and

Lindsay (26:51.7)
Hmm.

Lindsay (26:56.693)
Well, that's cool.

Mike (27:02.99)
to say, Hey, thank you for being such a great friend or a great coach or whatever. really appreciate you. And I'll tell them why I appreciate them. And it helps me feel good knowing that they feel good about it. And, and even if I don't get a response, I know I feel good about saying it. there's some of the things. Yeah. And then I help try people. go ahead.

Lindsay (27:21.353)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. That's awesome. No, no, no, I was just going to say on that note, I just one of the keynote speakers at the thing I was at in Vegas is a big wave surfer professional, and he got in a really gnarly accident where he got raked across his reef.

Mike (27:37.902)
Hmm.

Lindsay (27:47.154)
And his leg got so cut up and torn up that they thought they were going to have to amputate and whole thing. And then he they were like, you're never going to be able to surf again because your foot's never going to stop. He doesn't have feeling in his foot. And he went through a huge depression, obviously, because his whole career is done. And this is what he loves to do. And a kid who had just who had just had an accident become.

Mike (28:03.415)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (28:15.13)
What's the word? I'm paralyzed from the chest down. Was a fan of this guy and was also in the hospital and got wheeled in to talk to the guy. And he said he was like, I mean, I'm not paralyzed from the chest. Like, maybe I should stop being so like.

Mike (28:18.883)
Mm.

Lindsay (28:35.349)
You know feeling so sorry for myself like there are other people who have harder challenges Mm-hmm and this kid was super grateful and happy to you know, so all of that is to say towards the end of his Inspirational talk. He said one practice he started doing was once a week Writing someone and just texting them emailing them just like you're saying and just saying thank you for being in my life And I'm I'm you know grateful for you and that's it and he said I guarantee if you do it once a week

Mike (28:38.22)
Hmm changes perspective

Lindsay (29:04.885)
for a year, you're gonna have like an amazing transformation in your life. And so I was like, I'm gonna do that. And of course I forgot to you just said this. So now I'm gonna do that. But I think it's such a good idea. And like you said, he kind of said it, you're gonna have the transformation, just by doing it.

Mike (29:26.146)
Yeah, I completely agree. It's been, it was a big part of my recovery and sobriety is doing that. First off, really thanking the people and seeing the people in my life as gifts and even the adverse circumstances as a gift and opportunity. So, you know, there's obviously things in life that really suck and aren't fair. And I don't want to.

invalidate people's and their circumstances. However, I will offer that if you can be creative and open-minded to see the silver lining in things, it helps to move forward. It really does.

Lindsay (30:12.913)
Yes, I think when I get myself into the space of being open minded, whatever that stuckness is releases itself and also alternatives appear that I cannot see when I'm not feeling grateful and I'm just feeling kind of stuck in the situation.

Mike (30:32.28)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (30:41.117)
I can't sometimes see a way out, right? And there's no way out, but the truth is there are, it's just they're not visible to me because I'm so stuck in this one sort of loop of whatever the negative thinking is.

Mike (30:43.618)
Yeah.

Mike (30:53.536)
Exactly. And I would offer that more often than not, we find those opportunities when we're involved in movement. You know, during a workout or during a walk, they appear when we create the space instead of actively thinking about them. They appear as like moments of inspiration.

Lindsay (31:17.695)
Yep, agreed. Okay. So you were about to say something else when I interrupted.

Mike (31:20.803)
Yeah.

Mike (31:24.808)
I try to help connect people to their values and see like what's important to them, you know, certain practices. so if spending time with animals is important to them, say, okay, how can we do more of that? And there's usually a reason people have stepped back from their values or there's a challenge in their life. And so I say, okay, are you willing to feel a little bit of discomfort if it meant

Lindsay (31:28.658)
Mike (31:52.878)
you know, connecting to your values where you feel you're in the right spot. And generally people will say yes. So whether it's, you know, playing sports or getting outdoors more or connecting with people or reading or writing or playing music, whatever it is, I try to connect them with that.

Lindsay (32:14.773)
That's awesome. think we need, and I could stop using the word awesome. It's all awesome, but I'm on that today. Sorry folks, I don't know what, I don't have the ability right now to think of another word, but I appreciate the information Mike is sharing. Connecting with values is something I never thought about in terms of kind of getting out of depression. So if you don't mind, let's do a little,

Mike (32:19.943)
Hehehehehe

Lindsay (32:43.377)
experiment because I feel like.

Talking about this, I've kind of been able to identify, I am feeling a little depression myself, because this is part of the cycle I go through, but I can't always identify it immediately. I'll be like, I've been feeling flat for three weeks. But I'm interested in how the connecting values thing would work. So I'm coming to you, and I'm like,

Mike (32:56.641)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (33:02.275)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (33:05.795)
Yeah.

Lindsay (33:16.115)
I'm depressed. So now what do I do?

Mike (33:16.568)
Okay.

Okay, when you're at your best, what kind of things are you doing generally day to day?

Lindsay (33:27.333)
well, I'm usually working, but I feel I'm feeling inspired and invigorated, you know, when I'm doing my work, I feel like I'm in the flow. I like using my brain. So I'm getting that intellectual stimulation. And if it's not from work, it's from something else, but, you know, work or podcasts or, know, reading, I'm doing quite a bit of that brain stimulation, and then I'm moving my body quite a bit.

Mike (33:35.617)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (33:43.651)
Yeah.

Mike (33:49.176)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (33:56.927)
So regular, you know, riding, running, swimming, strength, whatever it is, I'm doing it really consistently.

Mike (34:04.396)
Okay. are there things that you did growing up that were really important to you that you don't do as much or at all today?

Lindsay (34:14.741)
Hmm.

Lindsay (34:18.235)
Yeah, that's an interesting question. I really liked I did really like riding horses and connecting with animals. This was something that I've always, always done, but I, I feel like I was more involved in I was more connected when I was young. I don't for one thing, I had a horse which I took care of and wrote so that, you know, that did that.

Mike (34:21.24)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (34:40.824)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (34:44.184)
Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay (34:46.559)
So that connection with animals. And then the other thing is I did a lot of like artistic stuff because my mom and grandmother are artists. So that was something I did regularly was something artistic. I'm not good at it, but I was doing the thing, making some of the clay or painting or pretty, pretty consistently.

Mike (34:52.056)
Okay.

Mike (35:07.124)
Right. Okay. And then my next question would be, what is a way where you could take one step closer to having more art or more time with animals in your life?

Lindsay (35:21.268)
Hmm.

Lindsay (35:24.605)
Well, one of the good things about this show is that it is helpful from a creative perspective for me. So that's definitely been bringing it back has definitely helped me. But I could do I've done this before and I really enjoyed it. I did like a grown up paint paint by numbers. I did. Yeah, I could do one of those. really it was a little more challenging than I thought it was going to be. And it was it.

Mike (35:42.926)
was just thinking about that. Yeah.

Lindsay (35:51.893)
created a piece of art which is now in my bathroom hanging up in the wall and it was a picture of a goat.

Mike (35:54.934)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. And they also have those like adult coloring books. Yeah. So kind of the same vein.

Lindsay (36:03.657)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (36:08.103)
Okay, could do, yeah, I could do like a paint by number or something. And I liked the one I did because it was an animal. And so I liked my goat. Maybe I'll look it up the same place and get something like that. That's easy to do.

Mike (36:17.454)
Hmm.

Mike (36:25.432)
Yeah, so sometimes these things are just are less elaborate than we might have imagined they would be in terms of an intervention on what we do. And sometimes like we know deep down like what what am I missing? What am I doing too much of or too little of? That's causing me to feel a little off or a little flat.

Lindsay (36:49.651)
Yeah, yeah. And I've definitely been living my life very imbalanced. A lot of work, very little working out like twice a week working out, which is not normal for me. And outside of the podcast, not doing anything creative or, know, which I find the creative creativity and doing those things to be relaxing. So I haven't been doing much of that either.

Mike (37:14.381)
Yeah.

Lindsay (37:18.781)
So no relaxing, no real working out, a lot of sitting at my desk working.

Mike (37:18.818)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (37:25.272)
Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, and it sneaks up on us. were creatures of habit, so we get into routines and rats. It sneaks up on us, really does.

Lindsay (37:26.451)
No wonder I don't feel great.

Lindsay (37:38.714)
Well, I appreciate that. That does seem like a simple thing that I could try that I would not have. I wouldn't have otherwise thought of, know, because I'm always like, maybe my meds need adjusting or maybe, you know, this will just go away somehow, which it will eventually.

Mike (37:54.476)
Yeah, right. Sometimes it's really just so in front of our face we don't see it. And these small shifts, rather than doing something more drastic like a complete med change or like an expensive vacation or something.

Lindsay (38:09.556)
Yeah.

Lindsay (38:13.713)
Yeah, because I love the escapism. I love that. Like, here I go, Tahoe. Yeah, buying a paint by numbers is a lot less expensive than taking a vacation or going through a whole med change. Expensive.

Mike (38:16.136)
so fun.

Mike (38:20.661)
Yeah.

Mike (38:37.164)
Right. And the others have their, their, their time and place. But usually, you know, when I'm working for people I look for, like, what can we do like immediately? What's, what's something you can do today or the next day?

Lindsay (38:40.755)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (38:47.303)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Lindsay (38:52.083)
Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for therapy. I me I can order of I can order a little piece of art that I can do and I can I can go to my strength workout. I bet you money. feel better after doing those two things. Hmm. And then what about you when you feel depressed? Do you have someone else that walks you through this process? Are you pretty much able to do it for yourself?

Mike (38:57.666)
Hehehehehe

Mike (39:05.048)
Hell yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (39:21.486)
I really forced myself to do it and take my own medicine, you know, look at it. In the past, I've worked with somebody, you know, a mental health professional to come to these conclusions. And I think I've done it so much that I'm not saying I will never need one again. But at the moment, I kind of know what to do. I know how to at least

use other people or do my best to check my blind spots. You know, so sometimes it's, it's like feedback from a friend and sometimes it, it, it's sometimes it stings, know, getting, getting, at least when guys are talking to other guys. Yeah.

Lindsay (40:13.759)
So when a guy is telling you like, you seem or guys telling you feedback, is that what you're saying?

Mike (40:21.536)
Yeah, exactly. Like I was, I was asking a question about, you know, something I could be doing more family wise. and basically asking like, this is the situation in, am I, am I being a Grinch about it or is this reasonable for my interaction? And the guy just like a hundred percent Grinch, a hundred percent.

Lindsay (40:45.001)
Ha ha

Mike (40:46.07)
Like, okay, good to know it's a little splash of toilet water that's uncomfortable, but there it is. And that's what I needed.

Lindsay (40:54.027)
of toilet water.

Lindsay (40:59.195)
Yikes. That's so funny. Yeah, those those good friends that will tell you the truth are are important, right? Because, you know, you surround yourself by yes, men all the time, it's probably not going to help you. I think about that with Kanye West, like does not does anyone not care about this guy because no one ever stops him or gives him, you know.

Mike (40:59.458)
Yeah.

Mike (41:23.97)
God, that's, that's, yeah, it just seems like it's such a tough place to be at the top of, of, of a category or an industry to where everybody has the incentive to be a yes, man around you. Right. So, yeah, exactly.

Lindsay (41:38.353)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that would be hard.

Lindsay (41:44.329)
Fortunately for us, we don't have that problem.

Mike (41:46.574)
Many people above us. Yes. See, that's that's talking about that silver lining and looking at things that way. It's like, yes, I can always find a dose of humility if I only just ask my friends.

Lindsay (42:03.266)
The silver lining for us today is that we are not Kanye West. Poor bastard. I had something else I was going to bring up and I totally forgot what it is. So I'll think of it when we're not recording. I'm sure. What else? Do you have anything else?

Mike (42:06.83)
We're not Kanye West. Yeah.

Mike (42:23.522)
I think that I think, understanding yourself for me, I understand that I need physical touch with people I care about and animals. So not neglecting that. and I think just knowing, knowing, you know, asking questions when I work with people, asking questions about themselves.

what makes them tick, what makes them happy, like where they are when they're at their best, what they're doing, sometimes the day to day things. And it can be as simple as like, what if you started by taking a shower or brushing your teeth, if someone's having some pretty severe depression? going outside, putting down your phone for a little bit.

Lindsay (43:15.305)
Yeah, yeah.

I've,

Mm-hmm. And if you work from home, this is something that I've because you go into work, right? I've been working at home mostly since the pandemic, and I did start going into the office like a couple of months ago, a couple of times a week because that act of getting up, showering, putting on actual like professional clothes, getting into, you know, get that cup of coffee, get into the commute.

Mike (43:27.822)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (43:44.142)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay (43:49.693)
and getting into the office, change my perspective and helps me feel like a full complete adult as opposed to kind of scooting over to my desk in my yoga pants and not fully, you it's like you kind of fully don't feel like you got up, got out of bed in a way, you know.

Mike (44:03.531)
Yeah.

Mike (44:09.718)
I have that feeling if I work at home, yeah, which is why I feel very fortunate to have a place to go to. Yeah, yeah, I get you there and yeah, just taking breaks and getting outside, looking at the, looking at the sky, the sun, getting the sun on your skin. It's easy to get in those ruts if you just stay inside in your own house and

Lindsay (44:36.798)
Yeah.

Mike (44:37.806)
doom and gloom watching the news too much. I generally advise people no matter what is going on, if they're consuming the news, especially video or, TV news or online news, to just maybe change it to a newspaper and, recognize that if you are consuming the news, we are wired through

Lindsay (44:56.583)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike (45:08.344)
how we are made to absorb bad news proportionately to the people we're around. If you bring it back to like indigenous times for people, right? Where you're seeing people in your tribe or maybe some other tribes, but you are just getting the news of your surroundings. And so you can, you can see the good and the bad, positive and the negative proportionately.

Lindsay (45:16.543)
Mike (45:36.448)
Now we are getting a disproportionate amount of negative news from the entire world. Woo, our genetics have not cut up for that. To filter out, wait, there's a lot of good things happening too. So we just, it's like, welcome back to the doom and gloom report. know, 70 people dead in a hurricane or tornado or earthquake.

Lindsay (45:42.057)
Right.

Lindsay (45:46.078)
Right, right.

Lindsay (45:53.693)
Right. Yeah. Because that's how you'll click. I that's how you'll you'll open the video faster or more if it's something that scares you or or, you know, outrages you. And the other thing is now we don't know who is real online. And so I do think it's becoming harder.

Mike (46:01.773)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mike (46:14.882)
Mm-hmm.

Lindsay (46:20.405)
for us, we might be watching the news, but we might not even be watching the news. We might be watching something that's completely fabricated. The person, the human being you're seeing is not a person, it's AI. There's a whole lot to it. I know. I have a theory that we're going to end up having to go old timey again because of how technologically advanced we're becoming, meaning

Mike (46:32.212)
scares the piss out of me. It really does.

Mike (46:47.118)
Yeah.

Lindsay (46:48.221)
It's not going to take very long for me to not trust anything digital, any interactions with theoretically with a human being. Exactly. Like I'm going need to see Mike in person. Otherwise I could be talking to AI Mike.

Mike (46:55.616)
Mm-hmm. Right. Exactly. Is this a deep fake or something like that? So, yeah.

Mike (47:06.83)
See, that's what I love about hunting and fishing. There are no AI animals that I'm fishing for or hunting. It's a real interaction with the environment. Bring home a deck and it's like, no, that was an AI duck. well.

Lindsay (47:15.563)
that you're aware of.

You

Lindsay (47:25.971)
Yeah, I think the real in-person interactions are going to become more important. They're already important, but they're going to become more important in general because of that fact that you could be connecting with something or somebody who's not a real somebody. That's just not great. I like AI to answer my little questions or it work if I have a question about an Excel formula, nerd, but AI will help me with that.

Mike (47:55.362)
Makes sense.

Lindsay (47:56.447)
but I'm not really interested in it becoming like a human being and talking to me on the line, making videos. So, all righty. Well, I think that's it. Did we do it? Yeah. All righty.

Mike (48:01.282)
Yeah.

Mike (48:07.832)
Feels good. I think so. I think we cured depression. So you're welcome, everybody.

Lindsay (48:13.127)
Yeah, everyone's happy and healthy and just living their best life now.

Mike (48:16.322)
Yeah. Yeah. I would say, and I would, I would strongly encourage anyone who's feeling like they might have a form of depression to reach out to a mental health provider. And one way you can find them is by going on psychology today and looking for providers in your area and maybe talking to somebody and seeing like doing, doing just a one time consultation and seeing if

Lindsay (48:37.013)
So that's a good idea.

Mike (48:45.506)
this is right for you because talking about things usually helps you get the problem from a swirling incoherent thought into a sentence that can be talked about with somebody and understood a little better.

Lindsay (49:02.311)
Agreed, Yeah, I mean, honestly, I didn't even really realize I was feeling depressed until we started talking about this. And when I was describing how I feel when I'm depressed, I was like, I'm feeling that right now. I've been feeling that for a couple of weeks. So just the act of talking with someone is helpful. So you don't have to make a commitment to have a therapist. You don't have to commit to taking meds or anything like that. you know, one little attempt and just check it out.

Mike (49:23.789)
Mm-hmm.

Mike (49:32.014)
Yeah, exactly.

Lindsay (49:33.823)
Hey, when's Veterans Day? Is that next?

Mike (49:36.76)
Veterans Day is Monday, November 11th. It's coming up. Coming up.

Lindsay (49:40.351)
So coming up, we're gonna have a special episode, you guys, because we happen to have a veteran on the show. And we're gonna have a special episode. And I can't wait to share that with you. for now, thanks so much, everybody. Check us out on gingerandchocolate.com or listen to us. And if you can subscribe and...

Do auto downloads where you get your podcast. It's super helpful to the show as well.

Mike (50:11.906)
Yeah, we appreciate it. Let people know if you like the show. Just tell them about it. Tell them to check it out and maybe send them an episode. can text it to them. yeah. All right. We'll see you next week. Bye.

Lindsay (50:22.143)
That's true. Thanks everybody. Bye.